Mr.
RICHARD UKHUELEIGBE, Sworn
Examined by Miss BHALOO
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, and please feel free to sit or stand, whichever you
like.
MISS BHALOO: Mr. Ukhueleigbe, could you give his Honour your name and
business address, professional address, please?
A My
name is Richard Ukhueleigbe and my business address is 100 Chalk Farm Road,
Camden NW1 8ER.
Q And
Mr. Ukhueleigbe, there should be a bundle labelled "B.1" in front of
you.
A That's
the blue one.
Q And
could you turn to tab 13 of that bundle?
Is that your witness statement?
A Yes.
Q And,
on p.8, is that your signature?
A That's
my signature, yes.
Q And
have you had an opportunity to go through your witness statement recently?
A I
have.
Q And
are the contents true?
A Yes.
Q Thank
you. Your Honour, again I would
ask that it stands ...
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, and what I want to do is, to some extent, start from
almost like examination-in-chief.
Questioned
by JUDGE
Q First
of all, I understand that, if you go to para.4 on p.46, you say: "My first
involvement" - this is in the second line. Have you got it?
A Yes.
Q --
"was when Jo Gavin contacted me directly and asked me to look at a leak
which she said affected part of the staircase leading down to the basement of
104." And then you say:
"This was 27th April 2004, according to our records," and
then you refer to an exhibit on p.2.
Could you get out, please, the bundle B.2? Is it there?
A B.2,
yes.
Q And
if you go to p.184 of that?
A Yes.
Q What
I want to know is what was it which the record tells you happened on 27th April
2004?
A 27.04?
Q 27th
April 2004.
A Yes,
the job issue was on 106820.
Q Sorry,
from what are you reading?
A This,
at the bottom bit.
Q The
bottom one?
A Yes.
Q "Job
card issued"?
A 1068.
Q I
see, 106820.
A Yes.
Q "Tracy"?
A "Trace
and remedy leak" ----
Q "...
remedy leak affecting shop below."
A Yes.
Q "Peter
or Richard." Is that how it
reads? Richard appears in a much
later column, as I understand it but I may be wrong.
A Yes.
Q Peter
or Richard?
A No,
Peter, that is the contractor.
Q How
does that sentence end?
A ...
Q Andy
to attend with Richard. Anyway, so
that is the job number: 106820.
Job card issued 27.04.04 and then Ryden Property Maintenance 27.04.04
and then appointment 5th May afternoon. So what is it in that record which enables you to say that
it was on 27th April?
Is it when she rang, or when you went along to the property?
A She
rang and I went to visit her at the property and she showed me a damp, where
the leak is coming ----
Q Yes,
I know, but, sorry, I will come to that in a moment. What is it to which - 27th April 2004, on
that record, refers? Is it a
visit, or a call, or what?
A It's
for a plumber to go up the flight above the shop to rectify the leak.
Q It
is when the plumber goes to ----
A That
was when this job was raised. It's
a date the job was raised for a plumber to go on the appointment on ----
Q The
date when the job is arranged?
A Raised
- the order was raised for a plumber.
Q Order
was raised.
A Yes.
Q Right,
order was raised. And does it tell
you when the plumber went along?
A The
date will - the appointment will be given as the 5th for the plumber
to attend.
Q 5th
May?
A Yes.
Q I
see, so order was raised 27th; plumber to attend on 5th
May. Tell me if I have got it
wrong, or right. You were not the
plumber.
A No,
I ----
Q You
were the person who went and raised the job.
A Yes.
Q Is
that right?
A Yes,
sir.
Q And
you did that on the 27th.
A Yes,
sir.
Q And
you could only do that by going along to the property.
A Yes.
Q Fine,
so you went along on 27th April?
A Yes,
sir.
Q You
were about to tell me what happened. She rang you.
A Yes.
Q And
you went along on the 27th.
A Yes.
Q When
did she ring you?
A I'm
not very sure the time she rang, but it was on that 27th she rang
and I went ‑‑‑‑
Q She
rang on the 27th and you went to see her. Where did you meet her?
A At
the shop.
Q At
104 or 106-8?
A 104,
104.
Q "At
104, I met her." And then
what did you find?
A She
showed me the casing that was wet and I notice on the side of the casing some
wetness as well, on the wall.
Q Side
of casing wetness. And this was in
the basement or the ground floor?
A The
ground floor.
Q On
ground floor. Yes, and were you
able to say what the cause of the wet was?
A At
that very time, we raised - I mean, I went upstairs with her to see if we can
get access to the floor - the flight above. The tenant wasn't around.
Q You
went upstairs with her to see if access to flat. Do you remember which flat it was?
A Flat
3.
Q It
was Flat 3. And do you remember
now who occupied Flat 3?
A I
could remember it's a black boy, like myself, but I couldn't remember his name
then now. I don't remember his
name but I know he's a black boy.
Q A
black boy, but cannot remember name.
Did you form any view as to what the cause of the leak was?
A Again,
I couldn't view - I couldn't think of any cause. I don't know what it was, the cause of the leak was.
Q "I
didn't know what the leak was."
So we know then that you raised the job.
A Yes.
Q And
that was for a plumber --
A Yes.
Q --
to attend.
A Yes.
Q Raised
job for plumber to attend on 5th May. Did you have occasion to go to the premises before 5th
May?
A Yes.
Q I
mean after your visit on 27th April.
A Yes.
Q And
so tell me about that.
A Yes,
after a while, I tried to get hold of the tenant for access ... get it off him,
and he gave me permission to ----
Q Sorry,
you did what?
A After
... to get hold of the tenant, I was successful to get hold of him and ----
Q You
got hold of the tenant.
A Tenant,
and he told me where to come and meet him. Then I went to his flat.
Q "I
went to is flat."
A Yes.
Q And
do you remember whether that was before or after 5th May when the
plumber --?
A That
was before the 5th May.
Q Before
the 5th. "I went
to his flat before 5th May."
A Yes.
Q Yes,
and what did you find in his flat?
A I
notice there were some damages to the tiles on the wall by the bath.
Q I
noticed damage to tiles on wall by the bath."
A Yes.
Q Yes.
A And
I raised a job for that to be rectified as well.
Q You
raised that job.
A Yes.
Q Was
that an additional one?
A Additional,
yes.
Q "I
raised that as a job." And
does that appear here?
A I'm
trying to look ... (After
a pause): No, it doesn't
appear. It doesn't seem to be
here.
Q On
the first visit, on the 27th, you raised a job and you called it
"remedy leak affecting shop below".
A Yes.
Q What
would you have raised on that second occasion?
A Well,
because I have noticed now that the tiles were faulty and I thought probably
maybe when he's using the bath, water is going through the damaged tiles and is
going down to the shop.
Q I
am terribly sorry, I did not take that in.
A Okay,
because when I went in the second time - I mean, when I went into the flat
above, I notice by the bath that the tiles --
Q Yes,
I follow that.
A --
the tiles were crack and some of them were damage, so my assumption was that,
when he's having his bath, water is seeping through the cracks.
Q Yes,
I understand that.
A Okay.
Q But
what did you ----
A For
the tiles to be rectified, for the tiles damage to be put right.
Q Tile
damage to be put right.
A Yes.
Q For
tile damage --
A On
the wall, yes.
Q --
to be put right. And do you know
whether a plumber went on 5th May?
A The
tenant confirmed that the plumber came, the tenant ----
Q Who
was the tenant?
A The
Flat 3.
Q I
see, tenant of Flat 3: he confirmed that the plumber came.
A Yes. And the tiles as well was done.
Q And
tiling was done.
A Yes.
Q Tiling
was done. And how long after 5th
May was that?
A Because
this issue was - there was concern about it. I was regularly communicating with Jo and also with the tenant
to make sure because it was a difficult thing to get hold of the tenant,
so I was making sure that job was done before he disappears again.
Q Before
what?
A Before
he disappeared, before the tenant goes away for - I mean, to make sure the job
was carried out before the tenant goes away.
Q So
does that meant the tenant told you it had been done within days or weeks or
months?
A No,
it was before - I mean, during the time of the appointment.
Q At
the time of the appointment.
A Was
kept, yes, the appointment was kept.
Q The
same day, or the day after, two days after?
A On
the 5th, the 5th of ...
Q On
the 5th?
A Yes.
Q On
the 5th?
A Yes.
Q I
see, on the 5th, the tenant told you ----
A Yes,
I mean, the job was done. The next
day, I called him and ----
Q The
next day?
A Yes.
Q On
the 6th.
A Yes,
he told me the job was done, so I went back to see the tiles were ----
Q The
next day, you called on him.
A I
called on his phone.
Q You
phoned him
A Yes.
Q "I
phoned him". What is this
about para.8? You finish para.7 by
saying: "I raised a job order around 5th May for a
contractor to replace the tiles and seal around the bath to ensure that the
water did not escape."
A Yes.
Q And
then you say: "We use a range of contractors to undertake work for us and,
in this instance, a company called Shenstone was instructed."
A Yes.
Q "As
I understand it, there were problems with regard to the tenant in gaining
access to the flat, and the job order was therefore reissued on 18th August
2004." What was the cause of
the reissue?
A The
issue was to do with the plumbing because she told me that there's still leak
coming through.
Q So,
after 6th May, the claimant got in touch with you again?
A
Got in touch with me because the leak is still coming in.
Q I
see, claimant said "leak still coming in". As I understand what you have said already, the plumber went
in on 5th May and then the tenant told you the next day, on 6th
May, that he had been in and he had done the job.
A He's
been in and gone, yes.
Q So
there was no problem about getting access then.
A Then,
because it was arranged, yes.
Q I
see, because it was arranged.
A Yes.
Q So
there was a further complaint from the claimant after 6th May.
A Yes.
Q And
at some stage before August. Do
you remember now when that complaint was?
A For
now, I couldn't remember the date it was but I know she call because she did
call me and we do - I do follow up to know what is happening in that premises
as well.
Q Do
you remember whether her call was in June or July or August?
A I'll
be telling a lie if I said ----
Q No,
I quite understand. If you do not
remember, say so.
A I
don't remember.
Q But
she rang you at some stage --
A Yes.
Q --
before August.
A Yes.
Q At
some stage before August. It was
over the phone.
A Over
the phone, yes.
Q At
some stage before August. Did you
go to the premises?
A I
did go, I did visit the area very well.
I visit the building, the estate, very well and, most of the time when I
visit there, I did try and check ... to see if he's there because we normally -
then we do have a good communication ...
Q Do
you remember whether you went into no.104 after her call?
A Yes,
I did.
Q You
did.
A I
mean, I must have been there, yes, I must have been.
Q You
must have been.
A I
must have been. I'm not 100 percent
sure. I must have been.
Q Must
have been there but not 100 percent sure.
You say that you reissued a job order, or raised an order, on 18th
August 2004.
A Something
----
Q Does
that feature here? I just want to
see what it was. If you can find
it, it might help you to remember whether or not you saw the premises before,
because the person who prepared your witness statement appears to have been
under the impression that you attended - someone attended - on 23rd
August.
A (After
a pause): I can't see
anything ...
MISS BHALOO: Sorry, I have just been told by my instructing solicitor
just in case it assists, your Honour.
Of course, she prepared the statement.
JUDGE COWELL: I am sure she did and I wondered where she got it from.
MISS BHALOO: Yes, your Honour, there was an earlier statement which was
prepared for the insurers, which is in an exhibit bundle, and, at the time that
was prepared - which was not prepared by my instructing solicitor, that was
just prepared at that time - there may have been other records available and so
some of the references will have come from that, and your Honour may also have
seen the document - your Honour is looking, I think, at pp.184 and 185 in the
exhibits bundle.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes.
MISS BHALOO: But there is another one, at pp.187 and 188, which I think
was one prepared - it says in the witness statement it was prepared in October
2006, and I think that was prepared for the insurers and that has job numbers
on it, on the left, which do not all - some of them appear on the one we are
looking at, but some of them do not.
So the August one ----
JUDGE COWELL: 18th August?
MISS BHALOO: 10302: I cannot find it on the one we are looking at, but it
does appear on that. Your Honour,
that is just in case it assists you to know how it was ----
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, I see. I
am really trying to ascertain what the witness remembers by reference to
documents which will help him.
If
you go on to p.187, this is probably not a document you recognise but it looks as
though ----
MISS BHALOO: Sorry to interrupt, your Honour. He says, in para.3 of his witness statement - and it is a
summary of works orders raised and actions taken ----
JUDGE COWELL: Sorry, one moment.
MISS BHALOO: Sorry, your Honour.
JUDGE COWELL: Paragraph 3.
MISS BHALOO: Last sentence: that document is a summary of works orders
raised and actions taken "which I prepared".
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, I know he says it, but it is really the solicitor.
MISS BHALOO: No, your Honour - I do not know. Perhaps we had better ask the witness.
JUDGE COWELL: Have you got p.187?
A Yes.
Q It
looks pretty authentic because there is a job number. But do you see there --
A I
see that, yes.
Q --
job 110302?
A Yes,
my Lord.
Q 18th
August.
A Yes.
Q And
23rd August. And then
it says "above", whatever that means: "Shenstone failed to
attend on 12th May," and then: "Job reissued to FWA. Attended on 23rd
August. Did no work due to wet
wall."
A Yes.
Q "Rebooked. Tenant failed to give access. FWA ... the wall tiling on 14th Ocotber
2004."
A Yes.
Q Is
that something you remember?
A Yes.
Q You
do, right, "I remember".
It may not matter but it looks rather as though the job was not done on
5th May. Can you help
me about that?
A Well,
I mean, my assumption is it was done because the tenant told me the plumber
came and chased it up. Probably,
from higher source, this one comes in again because we are still - even when I
went in there to check through, we're not very sure where the leak was coming
through. We just try to finally -
to sort it out in a way. And, at
the end of it, we found out that it's not even the leak that we're repairing;
it's something else that was coming ----
Q I
know you found out something else.
A Yes.
Q But
I just want to know. Your
recollection is that you went there to 104 before raising the job on 18th
August.
A Yes.
Q And
you raised that job and, as you say, the records show that the wall tiling was
done on 14th October.
Then you go on to say that Jo Gavin - the records show that she called
you on 15th October.
A Okay.
Q But
if she did, then you would have reported that Flat 2 had been done the previous
day. At para.11, you say: "It
was not until 24th January that a further leak was reported by the
tenant of Flat 3," and that is p.184.
A 184.
Q 24th
January 2005. Which record is
that?
A It's
on one ...
Q The
job no.116853?
A Yes.
Q Leak
to ground floor. That is not a
reference to the flat, is it?
A It's
the shop.
Q It
is the shop.
A Yes.
Q So
why should the tenant of Flat 3 report dampness in the shop?
A Well,
he reported a leak. That was the
... I had, that there was a leak.
Q Who
from?
A That's
what the call came out from the flat above, Flat 3.
Q How
would the occupier of Flat 3 know that there was a leak in the ground floor?
A I
mean, my assumption is there was a call for a leak, so I went in to attend
because I know there's a leak affecting the shop anyway, so I just went into
meet up with the plumber there.
That was reported at the call centre ...
Q I
will leave Miss Flores to deal with that.
A Okay.
Q She
may remember whether she called, but, at first sight, I should have thought
that the person who would be complaining of a leak in the ground floor would be
an occupier of the ground floor.
A Yes.
Q Do
you remember?
A Well,
what I'm saying is this call was reported to the call centre, and I was asked
to meet the plumber.
Q Would
it have been reported by you?
A ...
Q Sorry?
A It
must have been reported by Miss Gavin.
It must have been reported by Miss Gavin.
Q Yes,
that is what I thought.
A That
should be. But the person that
spoke to me was Flat 3. Flat 3
----
Q And
how come Flat 3 spoke to you?
A Well,
I mean ... with Flat 3 and Miss Gavin.
Probably she must have met Miss Gavin and he told her - he told him
that there's a leak coming from his flat again.
Q Was
the order of events this? Miss
Gavin phoned in, complaining of a leak?
A Yes,
yes, I wasn't - he wasn't phone me.
He phoned the office.
Q You
do not know who phoned.
A I
didn't.
Q Your
statement says: "A further leak was reported by the tenant of Flat
3." That is inaccurate.
A What
I'm saying is Miss Gavin supposed to report that case. But when he reported it, maybe he
called the call centre to report the incident to them.
Q Anyway,
as you understand it now, Jo Gavin reported to the call centre.
A That
was my assumption. That's my
assumption, yes.
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, I think the witness has made it clear that he
does not know who called the call centre.
JUDGE COWELL: No, exactly.
MISS BHALOO: He only knows that a call was made to the call centre.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, precisely.
Because he does not know, he is not able to say that it was reported by
the tenant of Flat 3. That is
typical of the way witness statements are prepared by somebody and then they
are not checked.
A But,
on this time, the tenant of Flat 3 told me of a leak affecting the shop
again. That was why I made - I put
that down: that the tenant of Flat 3 told me about that.
Q Did
he? I see. What did he say to you?
A He
told me there's a leak affecting flat - the shop below, again. So that was why I came in and, like I
said, I didn't ...
Q There
was a call to the call centre.
A Yes.
Q How
were you notified that something should be done about it?
A By
the job they raise and they notify me by email that I need to meet the plumber
there.
Q There
is an email?
A That's
for me to meet the plumber.
There's a leak affecting the shop again. So that was why I went on this issue.
Q You
went to Flat 3?
A No,
to the shop, to go and meet the plumber there, and Flat 3.
Q You
met a plumber where?
A At
the shop and we check Flat 3 as well.
Q At
the shop.
A Yes.
Q And
you went to Flat 3.
A Yes.
Q And
that was about 24th January.
A Yes.
Q And
you say that you went to Flat 3 and you repaired a fault on the WC connection.
A We
tried every means to see where a leak could be coming through.
Q Yes,
I understand.
A Okay,
we tried everything to see where the leak is coming through and we check the
WC; everything seems to be all right there. So it was then we went down to the shop and we find that
----
Q Yes,
everything seemed all right --
A Yes.
Q --
in the flat. You went to the
shop. Yes?
A Then
we tried to check the stack pipe and we noticed there was a pinhole in the
stack pipe.
Q You
found a pinhole --
A Yes.
Q --
in the stack pipe.
A Yes.
Q Was
it basement or ground floor?
A Ground
floor, it's still on ground floor.
Q On
the ground-floor level.
A Yes.
Q What
made you look at the stack pipe?
How did that come about?
A Because
we went - we done every bits on the flat above. Then we find that there was no leak coming through any
more. There might be something
wrong with the pipe, so that was why we went to check on that.
Q "We
found out no leak in flat, so we looked at stack pipe." Is the stack pipe accessible without
removing any kind of casing?
A We
had to remove the casing for ----
Q You
do have to.
A Yes.
Q And
you removed it on that occasion.
A We
removed the casing, yes.
Q What
part of the casing do you remove?
Do you have to go into 104?
A We
had to go into 104, yes.
Q You
have to go in to remove the casing.
A Yes.
Q "We
removed casing from within 104."
And did you find that the wastepipe was wet?
A The
stack pipe was wet, yes.
Q Was
wet. Was there a smell?
A No.
Q And
what did you do about the pinhole which you ----
A That
was when I raised the job on 117007.
Q That
is somewhere here, yes.
A On
p.187.
Q At
p.187, thank you very much. Sorry,
which job was it?
A 117.
Q 24?
A 26th.
Q 26th,
yes, thank you very much, 26th January. Then, in para.13 of your statement, if you could go back to
your statement, please --
A Yes.
Q --
you say: "On 11th January 2005, the tenant of Flat 1 reported a
faulty shower, and FWA completed the repairs on 18th January."
A Yes.
Q There
is nothing to involve the claimants in that.
A This
to do with the ... part of the shop.
Q Did
you have a complaint about that from either of the claimants?
A The
one you are reading now is not for the shop 104; it's for shop 106. It's two different shop.
Q Yes,
I know. There was a faulty
shower. But did it affect 106 at
all?
A I
presume so, because there's a problem affecting 106 stack pipe area as well.
Q I
know, we are coming to that in a moment.
A Yes.
Q You
did not recognise it as stack pipe for a long time. This is just part of the background, that, on 11th
January --
A Yes.
Q --
there was a report, but the complaint came from the tenant of Flat 1.
A Yes.
Q Do
you remember the name?
A I'm
not very sure but they're Asian, they're Asian. I'm not very - I can't say exactly what the name was now.
Q Asian
tenant of Flat 1. But was there
any complaint from either of the claimants on that occasion?
A No.
Q Did
you go to Flat 1 yourself?
A No,
not on that occasion. The job was
raised for them to ----
Q "I
didn't go to Flat 1 on that occasion." Then we know that, at some stage in February, there was a
complaint from Jo Gavin, as you say in para.14. But you cannot remember when in February, can you?
A I
can't remember when in February, but I know she called me about that problem.
Q And
can you remember how soon after the call to you, you went to see her premises
at 106-8? Do you remember? If you do not, say so.
A I
can't exactly remember, but when she calls and we're able to fix
an appointment date, I normally go to meet her. I mean, when we fix, if you said,
"All right, I'll meet you on Tuesday," we agreed a time, then I'll go
and meet her. On some occasion
it's just happen and she didn't meet up at that time.
Q That
is as far as you can take it. You
do not remember when you went along, but ----
A I
went - I met her some time, yes.
Q And
then you say, in para.15: "On 2nd March 2005, the tenant of
Flat 1" - this is the Asian man?
A Asian
family, yes.
Q --
"reported a leak to the bathroom." Did you go to flat no.1?
A I
went to flat no.1 and, sometimes, I went to Flat 1 to see what the problem was.
Q On
which occasion? Or do you not
remember?
A I
cannot exactly say ... but I don't think I went when the bath was problem, but
when the leak in the bathroom was, I went some time but I'm not very sure when.
Q You
say, in para.15, bottom of p.48: "So far as I can recall, I visited 106 -6
after the works to Flat 1 [and this was 2nd March] had been
completed, in response to Jo Gavin's complaint." Then, because the works in Flat 1 had been completed, you
told her about that, and you said it should resolve the problem.
A The
problem.
Q Yes,
I follow. And then (para.17) it
was the beginning of April when you noted that the casing around the stack pipe
was damp.
A Yes.
Q Did
you think of looking at the stack pipe at any earlier stage?
A No.
Q Why
not?
A I
didn't because I felt probably the previous leak from the flat, from Flat 1,
that has been causing the damp there, so I drew - put a mark there to see if
there's any fresh leak. The mark I
put there, the fresh leak will come towards it, and I would know that
there's still a leak from Flat 1, then I'll have to rectify that.
Q You
thought it was a leak from Flat 1.
Do you remember marking in pencil ‑‑‑‑
A That's
what I said just now.
Q When
did you do that?
A Yes,
that was when I went to - when she's reported about the leak ... damp on the
stack, and showed me the stain on the ceiling, so I put a mark ----
Q Which
visit was that?
A That
was when ... the 17, para.17.
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, I am sorry, I think your Honour missed the
witness's first reply.
JUDGE COWELL: I think I did.
MISS BHALOO: When you asked him about para.17, you said, "Did you
think of looking at the stack pipe?" and he said, "I thought it was
the previous leak from Flat 1, which was resolved, so I put the mark there to
see if it" - and I have written "expanded", but I am not
sure if he said "expanded".
JUDGE COWELL: You put the mark there.
A Yes.
Q And
that was the pencil mark.
A Pencil
mark, yes.
Q And
then you raised an order on 8th April.
A Yes.
Q 8th
April, raised order. And that is
somewhere in this, is it? Yes, it
is at p.188?
A 188,
yes.
Q Have
a look at it. Do not just say
"yes" because I have ----
A I've
seen it.
Q That
is it?
A Yes.
Q And
that was to be done --?
A By
FWA.
Q That
day. Attended late on the 8th,
rebooked for Monday, 11th.
Yes, I see. And what was
that for?
A To
renew the casing around the pipe.
Q When
was that taken off?
A Well,
it's supposed to be taken off by the same person that has come to renew it.
Q The
casing had not been removed on the 8th. When you went in at the beginning of April, you noted that
the casing around the stack pipe was damp.
A Yes.
Q But
you did not take it off.
A Because
I wasn't very sure if that leak was the final leak, that was why I put the mark
there to see if there's any leak still coming through.
Q I
see, put mark to see if any leak coming through. So you did not remove the casing on that visit.
A No,
we didn't, because I didn't have the tools to remove the casing.
Q "No,
I didn't have tools." But the
job which you raised was for a renewal of the casing.
A Yes.
Q Job
raised was for renewal of casing.
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, just to ensure there is no misunderstanding,
could we just ask the witness ----
JUDGE COWELL: Sorry, this is really your witness.
MISS BHALOO: No, no, not at all, your Honour, it is very helpful.
Can
I just check what you mean by "renewal"? What makes up renewal?
A Well,
because there was wetness on the casing, it's wet, due to the leak and, by my
putting the mark there, I felt, okay, if the leak is still coming from Flat 1,
I will know by the mark. So
when I went in again, after the first time I went there with the mark, I
noticed there was no extension of dampness around the mark I put there. It wasn't extending. I presume the work has been done, has
been carried out successfully.
JUDGE COWELL: Just a moment.
How often did you go?
A I
do go there more often, once I - to follow up the jobs.
Q What
sort of gap in time was there between your marking the ceiling and your going
back?
A Yes,
some few days in between.
Q A
few days.
A Yes.
Q When
you went back, what was the difference in the staining?
A The
staining was still the same thing: no change on that ceiling, that's why
I presume the leak has been sorted out with the job the FW went to do in
the bathroom.
Q "No
change in staining between two visits, the first of which was when
I marked the wall with a pencil."
A Yes.
Q And
the second visit was, you say, a few days later?
A Yes.
Q Tell
me if I have got your evidence right.
There was no change in the staining between the two visits, and the
first visit was when you marked the wall with a pencil, and the second
visit was a few days later.
A Yes.
Q Is
that right?
MISS BHALOO: Can I then go back to the question? The work order which you raised to
renew the casing: what did you actually want them to do? When you say "renew the
casing", what did you want them to do?
A Yes,
because the casing was damp, the casing was damp and it's wet and what you do,
take the damp casing off and put the new casing there.
JUDGE COWELL: The next question is did you raise the order for the new
casing after the visit when you marked the wall, or after the later visit?
A After
the later visit.
Q "After
the later visit, I raised the order," and that is the order of 8th
April.
A Yes,
that's the order for 22nd.
Q Sorry?
A ...
Q I
am sorry, what? I did not hear.
A No,
I was reading the job that was raised on 8th February.
Q The
new casing was not put on, was it?
A Well
...
Q You
may have raised the job but, as I understand it, nothing happened until the
removal of the casing, near the end of the month.
A I
mean, I don't think the new casing was put on, because I never went back again.
Q No,
I do not think it was.
A I
never went back again after that because it was then ...
Q Just
a moment. Sorry, I am having
difficulty in understanding what you say.
"I don't think new casing was put on" --
A No.
Q --
"after I raised the order."
I am sorry, what are you --?
A Yes,
I said it was later on my senior surveyor came into the scene to attend to
these issues of the damage and the stack pipe.
Q Who
was that?
A His
name was Eddie, Edward.
Q Senior
surveyor, Edward, came on later.
A Yes.
Q Did
you go back to the property 106-8 after raising the order of 8th
April?
A No,
after that, I didn't go again because ...
Q In
connection with this, anyway.
A Yes,
because she later report that there was still continuation of ----
Q Sorry,
wait a minute, I have got to make a note of this.
A Okay,
sorry.
Q "I
didn't go back again after raising the order of 8th
April." And you were saying
something which I ----
A I
said that she - That Jo Gavin phoned again that there was still continuation of
leak.
Q Sorry,
there was still a continuation of the leak.
A Of
leak, yes, so ----
Q How
do you know that?
A I
mean, she called.
Q She
called.
A She
called, yes.
Q She
called.
A She
reported that.
Q And
said there was a continuation of the leak.
A Yes.
Q So
what did you do about that?
A So
we ask them to deal with that job that was raised ...
Q You
did what?
A We
told the contractor to deal with the job that was raised about the casing.
Q "We
told the contractor." Who is
"we"?
A I
mean, I told the contractor ----
Q "I
told the contractor," to do what?
A To
trace and deal with the casing job.
Q To
trace?
A Yes,
the leak, where the leak is coming from.
Q Trace
the leak and deal with the job.
A Yes.
Q And
who was the contractor you spoke to?
A That's
FWA.
Q Yes,
but what human individual did you speak to?
A I
wouldn't be able to tell name of the ...
Q When
you ring FWA, who did you ask for?
A I
speak with the supervisor all the time.
Q With
whom?
A The
supervisor, supervisor.
Q I
see, "I spoke to supervisor."
In para.18 of your statement, you say: "My notes indicate that,
once the duct casing was opened, the source was traced from" - where are
your notes? What are your notes?
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, it was the document to which I was referring:
pp.187/188.
JUDGE COWELL: But these are not your notes, are they? Or are they?
A That
was the instruction.
Q Page
187: is that to what you are referring?
A 188.
Q Pages
187 and 188, yes. These are your
notes, are they? Did you write
them?
A No,
it's the job instruction. It's an
order instruction for job to be carried out.
Q I
know they are. Let us go to
para.18 again: "My notes indicate that, once the duct casing was opened, the
source was traced from the bath trap above."
A Yes.
Q Where
is the bath trap?
A That's
should be in Flat 1.
Q In
Flat 1.
A Yes.
Q I
will look at your notes in a moment.
The bath trap was in Flat 1.
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, the notes which are in the exhibit: if your
Honour goes back to p.186, there is an email from Michael Connor to Toosha
Shah, that is why, your Honour, as it says in the beginning of the statement,
this was a document prepared by Richard in October 2006. Does your Honour remember the bit I
referred you to at the beginning of the statement: para.3?
JUDGE COWELL: Paragraph 3?
MISS BHALOO: Yes.
JUDGE COWELL: Just a minute.
MISS BHALOO: I think your Honour assumed it had been prepared by
solicitors, but the last sentence of para.3: "The other document, at
pp.4-6, is a summary of works orders raised and action taken, which I prepared
in October 2006."
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, I see.
MISS BHALOO: And then p.186 is ----
JUDGE COWELL: Those are later referred to as "my notes".
MISS BHALOO: Yes, and, on 2nd October 2006, we see that
document going from Michael Connor to Toosha Shah ... saying: "Here is the
document from Richard," and, your Honour, that is why I was saying that
that document had been prepared by him, from other records which were available
at the time. I am sorry, I
did not make myself clear at the beginning.
JUDGE COWELL: There was so much which was not clear in this statement that
I wanted to - thank you very much.
"My
notes indicate that, once the duct casing was opened, the source was traced
from the bath trap [and that is in Flat 1], which was immediately
repaired." Where is the
repair to the bath trap? (After a pause): Yes, against order 120908?
A Yes.
Q Is
that right?
A That
is the instruction, yes, 120908, yes.
Q 120908. Were you there on 26th
April?
A No,
I wasn't there.
Q So
that must be what somebody reported to you.
A That
was what they told me they find out that bath trap was damaged and they had to
renew it, that's where the leak is coming from and that's what they did.
Q That
is what you were told.
A Yes.
Q Do
you remember who told?
A That's
the contractor that went up with him.
I won't be able to tell you the name of the ----
Q Told
by contractor about the bath trap.
Did you understand that the contractor had been into Flat 1?
A Yes,
I mean, that was the instruction we give to them: that they should trace where
the leak is coming from because she - I mean, the - Gavin report it. They say continuation of leak, so we
ask the plumber to go in and trace where the leak is coming from again. So he told us that it's from the bath
trap.
Q So
you were not there.
A I
wasn't there.
Q But
what you were told by the contractor was that it was the bath trap ----
A Bath
trap, yes.
Q And
did you understand from that that the contractor had been into --
A Flat
1.
Q --
Flat 1?
A Yes.
Q "I
understood contractor had been to Flat 1." So the only time in April you went was at the beginning of
April, when you raised the order for the new casing.
A Yes,
that was the last time I went in there.
Q That
was the last time you went into 106-8.
A Yes.
Q Again,
you were not there on 26th April.
A I
wasn't there.
Q But
you were told that the duct casing had been opened.
A Yes.
Q I
think we have photos showing that.
And then if we can move on to the next part of your statement, the leak
to no.104 as a result of what I know was a flood from above. Can I just ask you this? Did you go to no.104 at any time after
the flood?
A I
did.
Q You
did.
A Yes.
Q And
can you tell me when? It is at
para.22: "I arrived at the premises later that day," that is Monday,
27th June.
A Yes,
I think I got access into their flat when they were doing some painting work on
29th.
Q Yes,
and I think that was the occasion when they did not want you to do anything.
A Yes.
Q Yes,
I remember. And then was there any
other visit which you made to the premises in relation to anything else in your
statement?
A I
know she'd made mention of the problem with the glass ...
Q Glass
bricks?
A Glass
bricks outside. I know she made
mention of that, which I later on refer to the other department dealing with
that and ...
Q Yes,
you referred that to somebody else.
A Yes.
Q So
am I right in saying that, in relation to the claimants, the last visit you
made to either of the premises was at the end of June, when they were painting?
A In
relation to leaks from both flats.
Q Thank
you very much.
A Thank
you, sir.
Q I
do not know if there is anything you want to ask arising out of that,
Miss Bhaloo?
MISS BHALOO: No, thank you, your Honour.
JUDGE COWELL: I want to make it clear to Miss Flores that she is of course
entitled to ask any questions of this witness about any of that, but I just
wanted to get a general picture of the events because it seemed to me there
were certain parts of the statement which were not particularly clear.
MISS BHALOO: No, your Honour, I have nothing.
JUDGE COWELL: Thank you very much.
Cross-examined
by Miss FLORES
Q Just
a couple of questions. Chris Natt
said he was a valuation surveyor.
What kind of surveyor are you?
A I'm
a maintenance surveyor.
Q Maintenance.
A ...
maintenance.
JUDGE COWELL: Maintenance surveyor.
A Yes.
MISS FLORES: Does the Orchard system deal with commercial properties
actually on the Orchard system?
A Normally,
as I said - as I did explain to you previously when I ... that commercial
properties - I've been there with Jacqui.
She is supposed to be dealing with that. I mean, when she ask us to deal with this because of the
leak from the flat, that was when we were involve in it because normally the
issue of commercial properties would go through the insurance and that's - will
be dealt with by Jacqui.
Q So
does the Orchard system have a box for commercial properties? It is normally Jacqui that deals with
that ----
A What
I'm saying is when ----
Q Are
you suggesting that it is not on the Orchard system?
A I
don't study the Orchard that much to know if there's any section that deals
with commercial issues, but any repairs that were related that we should - that
is affecting commercial from our tenant, we raise the job to rectify the leak
from wherever it's coming from the flat.
JUDGE COWELL: Did you smell an unpleasant smell in no.106-8 when you went
there?
A I
didn't smell any bad smell, apart from damp smell.
MISS FLORES: What smell?
A Damp.
Q Damp.
A Damp,
yes.
Q That
would probably be from the pavement lights, which were saturated.
A Well,
that's only what I smell.
Q That
is what you smelled.
A Damp,
yes.
Q Do
you remember when we dealt with the first stack pipe at 104 in April and we
dealt with a contractor called Million, which you might ----
A Million?
Q Million.
A Well,
like I said, I don't remember the name, but I remember that issue of 104 with
the stack pipe.
JUDGE COWELL: Did you not think that there might be something wrong with
the stack pipe in 106-8?
A Well,
like I did under the one at 104.
Before I did - before I would find out where the pinhole was, we've
already sort of like sort out the problem from the flat above to make sure
there's no leak coming from that flat.
That was the approach I wanted to make up in that 106 as well. That was why I started my repair from
the flat, to make sure I eliminate any leak from that area.
Q Yes,
but the point is that you had found there was something wrong with the waste
stack pipe going down to 104; you found that out --
A Yes.
Q --
in 2004.
A Yes.
Q Did
you not think of looking at the other stack pipe?
A It
was when it was reported, I have to check on that. I can't just - I mean, it's a commercial property. I cannot be jumping until when she
notify me that something ...
Q Sorry,
I ----
A If
she notify me where there was something happening with the other stack, then I
will go and check on that. I could
not just go and be searching through a premises without her notifying me
of any fault in the premises.
Q "If
she'd notified me of stack problem ..."
MISS FLORES: I just wanted to ask, referring to 104, bringing us back to
April 2004 which is when we first met.
Do you remember - because I got the premises in April 2004 of the
next-door shop, so I do not know if you might recall there was a lot of wood
lying around on the floor because I was fixing the - I was making a new
floor? But do you remember I might
have dragged you next door to have a look at the pavement lights, around the April.
A The
pavement?
Q You
know, the soffits.
A The
glass?
Q Yes,
do you remember I dragged you maybe next door to just have a look at the - and
you said something about I should check with the council that this was a public
highway, but you did not think it was your responsibility? Do you remember that?
A I
remember that, yes. We spoke about
that, and I told you that, well, I will go back to the office and I'll report
it to the group that deals with that.
Q That
is it, yes.
A That's
what I did, and that was ----
Q And
that was around that April.
A Well,
I could - I'm not very sure what time.
Q But
it was the only we were meeting around then - was April.
A I
will be meeting - we met many times but I could not exactly pinpoint the one it
was, but I know we - you spoke about that, and I relate it back to the group.
Q I
know you did. I am just saying I
am trying to identify the dates because we met around April. I had reported it to Jacqui Greene. She had asked me to report it to you,
which was the normal system, and I brought you next door to look at the
pavement. And there was another
time where you looked at the pavement because I was going a bit mad about the
whole pavement thing, was I not?
And so I think I showed you the pavement twice. Was it twice or ‑‑?
A Well,
like I said, I wouldn't ----
Q You
had a friend with you. Do you
remember?
A I
wouldn't be able to tell exact month.
Q Does
not matter about the dates. I am
just saying ----
A But
you reported it to me, then I passed it to----
Q And
you saw it, you saw it a few times.
A Well,
I look at it, and I felt, "Okay, maybe they need to do some work on
it," but I said - I was assuming, for the start, that it's the - it
belonged to the Camden Council because it's a street walkway. I presume it was ... but when
I got to the office, I mean, I reported it to the group dealing with it,
and I left it with them.
JUDGE COWELL: Just a moment.
"I reported to group."
And what group was that?
A The
planned maintenance.
Q The
what?
A The
planned cyclical maintenance ...
Q I
am so sorry, the what?
A Planned
maintenance, planned - P-L-A-N ----
Q Planned
maintenance.
A Yes.
MISS BHALOO: Planned cyclical maintenance.
JUDGE COWELL: Planned cyclical maintenance.
A Yes.
Q Miss
Flores, is it your case that the waste stack pipe in 106-8 ought to have been
discovered much earlier?
MISS FLORES: Yes.
JUDGE COWELL: Because, if it is, you should put the facts on which you
rely to this witness.
MISS FLORES: I mean, I think you have asked a number of questions.
JUDGE COWELL: I have, but ----
MISS FLORES: Would you like me to go through my questions? I have got a lot of questions.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, certainly, because this ----
MISS FLORES: I just thought I maybe just ask a couple of questions.
JUDGE COWELL: It seems to me this is --
MISS FLORES: I will start from the beginning then really.
JUDGE COWELL: -- the important point in the case.
MISS FLORES: Yes.
JUDGE COWELL: Can I just explain?
It seems to me this is the important point in the case and so it is very
relevant to deal with this particular matter.
MISS FLORES: Yes, I am very happy to go through quite a lot of questions.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes.
MISS FLORES: I was just anxious that you have asked a lot of those
questions.
JUDGE COWELL: I have asked by way of sort of introduction into the
subject.
MISS FLORES: Okay, that is great then. Mr. UK, I will start again.
A That's
okay.
Q Chris
Natt said that - well, he was a valuation - and you say you are
a maintenance surveyor. What
is that, a maintenance --?
A Maintenances.
Q Is
that everything?
A Reactive
maintenance, repairing any defects.
Q Any
defects to --?
A To
a properties, to other ... properties as well.
JUDGE COWELL: And you can, incidentally, show him the photographs.
MISS FLORES: I will, I will.
So
the type of surveyor you are would - because I understand valuation, because
that is kind of straightforward, but you deal with maintenance of --?
A Day-to-day
repair maintenance, day-to-day occurrence, repair maintenance, yes.
Q Okay,
I will not go further with that --
A That's
okay.
Q --
because I do not really understand it but I get you, sort of. Now, one thing I want to ask you
is the residential maintenance, you said, is not part of commercial
maintenance.
A The
residential?
Q The
residential is - you deal with ----
A Yes,
I deal with the residential.
Q How
many flats do you deal with?
A I
deal with all the residential issues.
Q It
says in your statement 550 flats.
A Well,
in that block, I deal with many more than that now but, at that period of time,
we deal with all that, yes.
Q Yes,
so, at that time, you were in charge of 550 residential maintenance flats --
A Yes.
Q --
which is quite a large amount of flats.
A Well,
you can say that, you can say that.
It's part of the job description and ...
Q Actually,
on the job description, does it say that you have to deal with commercial?
A No.
Q So
you are very clear that you are not ...
A No,
no.
Q Does
your union rep know you are here?
A Sorry?
Q Does
your union representative know you are here? I mean, you are dealing with a commercial case. You are in court about ----
A Yes,
because I was roped in to deal with these issues from our flat that affected you, so I have to be here.
Q I
suggest maybe that that is not really - you do not feel that is fair?
A It's
the job. It's the company that
employ me, so I have to attend to their instruction, so it's okay.
Q So
it is not in your contract, that is for sure.
A I
don't deal with commercial.
Q You
do not and ----
A It's
Jacqui, then it's Jacqui and the other - I mean we have series of departments
that deal with series of issues.
Q In
fact you mentioned City Living - City Style/City Living?
A I
didn't mention anything of this.
Q In
your witness statement, you mentioned there was contractors that deal with
leaseholders.
MISS BHALOO: Can you show us the page ...
MISS FLORES: It would delay me to locate it right now. Can I just continue?
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, I do not think it is in this ...
JUDGE COWELL: No.
A No,
I don't think I'd say something like that, not in my statement.
MISS FLORES: Okay, I will locate it because it is definitely in here.
MISS BHALOO: ...
MISS FLORES: It does, it does.
I remember reading it.
You
said, in your earlier statement to Alan Hines, that there is some leaseholders,
which were different properties; that Jacqui would do those - responsive
repair, development. Here we go:
550 domestic properties. The
area you were covering was South London.
A Yes.
Q Extending
from King's Cross to West End. In
2004, "according to our records, it is likely that, as a commercial
property, she had initially spoken with Jacqui Greene, who deals with
commercial portfolios."
MISS BHALOO: Can I just check from where you are reading? Can we have the page reference?
MISS FLORES: It is the old statement of Mr. UK, which is on p.D.3, 699.
JUDGE COWELL: This is a draft, is it not, of a statement?
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, I think it is part of the insurance file ...
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, it may have been signed.
MISS FLORES: This was a statement made to Alan Hines, the original loss
adjustor.
JUDGE COWELL: Did you prepare it, or was it done by somebody else?
A Yes,
done by them.
Q Done
by --?
MISS FLORES: "Done by them".
A By
the ...
Q Loss
assessors.
A Yes.
Q Okay.
JUDGE COWELL: Done by CHA, someone ----
A No,
the solicitors.
MISS FLORES: No, the loss assessor: Alan Hines. Alan Hines did his statement.
JUDGE COWELL: He did it, did he?
MISS FLORES: Yes.
A Alan
Hines, yes.
Q Alan
Hines did his statement.
JUDGE COWELL: I see. Did you
ever sign it?
A No,
I didn't sign it.
Q You
were not asked to read ----
A It's
not signed.
Q No,
I know, that is not signed, but you never were asked to sign --
A Well,
it wasn't brought to my ----
Q --
or check whether it was correct?
A Well,
it wasn't brought to my ...
Q No,
it was not brought to your attention.
MISS FLORES: I do not know why but I have got "development team,
planned works, City Style".
A Yes,
those are the departments we have and, like I said, the company has series of
departments.
JUDGE COWELL: Where does it say that?
MISS FLORES: Sorry --?
JUDGE COWELL: Which page of this?
MISS FLORES: No, it does not seem to say it, but I think Richard knows
what I am talking about. What
were you saying, Richard?
A Well,
what I'm saying to you is I never mentioned anything about City Style in my
statement.
Q No,
but I am trying to ascertain - I will tell you where I am coming. I am trying to link the fact that you
are residential maintenance. Got
absolutely nothing to do with this commercial case in terms of - that is my
suggestion anyway, and that CHA have a commercial - sorry, a leasehold property
service, which would not over-stretch you but would allow them to deal with me
as a commercial leaseholder who is being made money out of my business, with a
City Style maintenance team. So my
suggestion is you should not be here.
They should ----
A Well,
if I could correct you, City Style - 2004, City Style wasn't existing.
Q Was
it not?
A Wasn't
existing. It came in after
2004. Yes ... group was being
dealt with by Jacqui, and we had a planned maintenance section and we have a
reactive section. Those are the
group that were dealing with then.
City Style is just a new ...
Q Okay,
so reactive maintenance is what?
A It's
to do with day-to-day reactive repairs.
Q And
general maintenance is to do with --?
A General
maintenance - planned maintenance is to do with the yearly ...
Q Development.
A Development,
yes.
Q With
the overall objective of --?
A The
yearly decoration and repairs of commercial - I mean, communal areas and
roofing and all that stuff.
Q But
planned maintenance is in fact a bigger outfit in terms of its development
style.
A Well,
in terms of improvement, refurbishments and all that stuff.
Q So
they did not budget how kitchens were maybe going to get installed and this
sort of thing.
A Well,
I don't know their package, but I know that's what they do: refurbishment. They do communal areas repairs.
Q I
have got you. So planned
maintenance - reactive maintenance.
Are you reactive?
A Yes.
Q Yes,
and you are the head of reactive ----
A I'm
not the head of ...
Q You
used to be.
A I
mean, there was ...
Q Jim
and Les?.
A Not
Jim. I've forgotten ...
Q Ed? What did he look like?
A I
will remember ... our manager then.
Q Leftie?
A Not
Leftie. What's his name now?
Q Was
not Les. What did he look like?
A He's
a slim guy. Anyway ...
Q Anyway,
I think I know the guy you mean and I have forgotten his name as well.
A (After
a pause): O'Brien.
Q O'Brien.
A Yes.
Q Well
done, thank you very much for that.
So he is the head of reactive maintenance.
A Yes.
Q Just
for our minds' sake, you say there is six area surveyors. You said the team consisted of six area
surveyors. One was maintenance
manager and the other one was a senior surveyor, which was Ed Costner. Has Ed Costner always been involved
----
A Eddie
Costner, Eddie Costner.
Q Okay,
cool. It is just to get a picture,
you understand.
A That's
okay.
Q People
cannot just guess. Even though it
is in writing, sometimes it is better from you - Do you know what I mean? - to
get a better picture. Anyway, back
to my question. The Orchard system
does not connect with the commercial, but if residential is part of it then you
would react to it. Mr. Natt said
that the first port of call if a leak occurred was Jacqui, who would then ask
maintenance to inspect it. In my
experience, that was always the case.
Would you sort of agree?
A Yes,
that would be the case if it's - if the tenant above ... caused a leak, is
residential tenant.
Q So,
in the case of the pavement lights, even though you were asked to have
a look it, by Jacqui, it was nothing to do with residential.
A Yes,
that's was why I pass it to the group that I think be dealing with it.
Q Okay,
so, in effect, you had been brought in to look at something that really
had ‑‑‑‑
A Well,
she just want - I think she just wanted me to find a solution to sort that out,
if it's something I can do. Then -
but I felt it's not my area till I pass it to the group that deals with it.
Q Yes,
nobody dealt with it for six months, but obviously you had been in to see it
and, as you say, it is nothing to do with residential, does not affect - it is
a commercial property: it is not in your contract, end of. Just to establish for the purposes of
dates, which is quite important, would you say you visited twice on the
pavement or three times?
A I
cannot exactly tell you, you know, if it's two times/three times.
Q I
cannot remember, either. I think
it was twice.
A To
be candid to you, I can't remember.
I know I met you once and we stayed there talking about it, and that was
- I didn't come back on that issue, yes.
Q Yes,
that was the main thing, but I think you arrived with a friend, and you both -
I think you might remember. I
think it was a film person friend of yours. You and a guy arrived and we did look at the lights, but
that might have been to do with the fact that it was a nice building and you
might have been showing him the floor and stuff as well, but anyway. Right, it is established that the works
order on 27th April 2004, stack pipe - I was just going to say do
you recall me bringing you into 106 around that time? It was fixed around 27th April, was it not?
A Well,
as I've already told his Honour ----
Q Yes,
I do not want a repeat, sorry.
A I
mean, it was fixed on the date we fixed it. When we found out the pinhole was there, that was when we
fixed it.
Q Yes,
fine. Yes, you have already
established ----
JUDGE COWELL: He said that he did not go back again after raising the
order of 8th April.
A That
was to do this 106.
MISS FLORES: It is all in 2004.
JUDGE COWELL: That was 106-8.
This is about 104, is it?
A Yes.
MISS FLORES: Yes, this is about 104. It is in 2004.
It is at the exact time I got the lease on ----
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, of course, that is 27th April works order.
MISS FLORES: I got the lease on it 8th April.
JUDGE COWELL: I am sorry, I was on the wrong ----
MISS FLORES: I found that the pavement lights were leaking straight away.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes.
MISS FLORES: It just so happened Richard happened to be about with the --
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, and you showed him the ...
MISS FLORES: -- stack-pipe leak.
I brought him thru, showed him the pavement leaks. He said it was the responsibility of
the council. I understand better
from having spoken to him today that it really was not any of his
responsibility because it was not effected by a residential tenant; it was on
the pavement. And, as discussed,
he advised that it was a public highway and I should check with the council.
A Yes.
Q So can we move on from that?
A Go
on.
Q Okay,
now, we move to 104, which is the stack pipe itself, which is 27th April
date of fixing. Now, can I just
immediately say it is not relevant to the claim? We did not claim for that stack pipe. I had probably met you some time before
the stack pipe was fixed, you may recall, popping in and out of the gallery
around about that time and, as I said at the time, that job by Shenstone's,
that guy Million, small, black guy with curly hair, really nice, did a
fantastic job. It took a long time
to get it done but it was a little orange and - orange staining around the
electrics. You might remember, at
the bottom of the floor was leading to the staircase, there was electrics and
there was that paint that was sort of orange.
A I
mean, I can't recollect, to be candid, exactly to be exact. I can't recollect what the issue was
but I only dealt with that major aspect of it and ...
JUDGE COWELL: So there was a stack-pipe leak in 2003. The one in which you are not claiming
anything: did you see any of that?
A 2003? No.
MISS FLORES: 2003?
A I
didn't see anything about 2003.
JUDGE COWELL: Perhaps you do not know anything about it.
MISS FLORES: There was 2003.
What happened was, from the first incident of 2003 where we looked at it
and there was some staining, it took six months to fix, but it was not as bad
as the second leak.
A Was
I involve in 2003?
Q Well,
I cannot --
A I
don't think I did.
Q --
recall, but I know that you were the one ----
JUDGE COWELL: You were not involved.
A No,
I wasn't ----
Q You
were not involved in the 2003.
MISS FLORES: I know you were the one who effected the repair.
A 2004,
yes.
Q Basically
what happened was, in about November 2003, there were signs of staining. I reported it to Jacqui Greene.
A Okay.
Q Someone
eventually got round to telling yourself.
A Okay.
Q You
ordered Shenstone's to do the work.
A Yes.
Q And
Million did a great job.
A Yes,
that was when I was involved in it.
Q Not
claimed for.
A ...
Q Nothing
to do with this claim.
A I
mean, we just tried to ... everything back to normality. I wasn't involved in 2003, but 2004,
that was when I came into the scene.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, I follow.
MISS FLORES: Yes, you were employed as residential maintenance in ----
A No,
I been employed before then, but I'm just saying I came into that scene of the
leak in your commercial area then.
Q It
is not claimed for. I think you
were actually dotting in and out --
A Okay.
Q --
around that time, so I already knew you quite well.
A Yes.
Q Because
I pointed out that, and the leak was fixed, not claimed, not relevant. Only relevance is that, at the time, I
grabbed you to show you the pavement lights.
A Yes.
Q Now,
the 104 stack is - no, it is in the schedule items. Now, the 104 stack pipe that is claimed for would be
September 2005 stack pipe, you know the one.
A You
mean 106, you mean?
Q No,
no, 04, 04. There is only two
stack pipes claimed for. There is
104 and there Is 106.
A Yes.
Q 104
happened in September 2005, was fixed.
A 104,
yes, we seen them together. 106 is
the September 2005.
Q Sorry,
you are right, I am mixing up everything.
Right, let us start again.
The September 2004 ...
A Five,
five.
JUDGE COWELL: Is it the 104 or ----
MISS FLORES: 104.
JUDGE COWELL: 104.
MISS FLORES: Right, Richard, in April, Million fixed it.
A 104
was April 2004.
Q In
April, Million fixed it, April/May/June/July/August/September, five months
later, it was showing staining again and that developed over six months.
A No.
Q Well,
that is what I suggest --
A No.
Q --
happened.
A No.
Q Well,
you did not even see it.
A No,
I mean, you did call me anyway. I
did see. What I'm trying to
say is ...
Q But
you are saying "no".
A Okay,
okay, okay.
Q But
you are, one hand, saying you did not see it and then you are saying,
"no", it did happen.
Which one is it?
A Yes,
because, obviously, and normally, if it does, you will have called me, you will
have called me. That's why I said
"no", because normally for that issue of that 104, you will have
called me.
Q Right.
A You
will have called me. I definitely
know ... you will have called me to witness that.
Q Right,
so I suggest that I did call Jacqui, who would have called you.
A Jacqui
didn't call me as well.
Q That
is always the way --
A Okay.
Q --
it works and there is some evidence to that, and I will refer to it. But to jog your memory as to the repair
of it, which is what I want to get to, the repair of it was in late
January/February 2005. Yes?
A Okay.
Q I
am just saying. You remember?
A No.
Q Okay.
A 2005
issue was related to 106.
JUDGE COWELL: No, the repair --
A The
repair, yes, the repair.
Q --
was in January/early February of 2005.
MISS FLORES: 2005.
A Yes,
yes.
Q It
just all happened at the same time, Richard. You are not wrong.
There was stack pipes that we were dealing with at the same time.
A Yes.
Q So,
you know, I am just trying to get some facts here.
A Yes.
Q There
was a Japanese artist that we had on.
You might remember there was a big table with a futuristic ... in
there. I think you said something
about toilet rolls or something.
That might jog your memory.
It was called "What is Utopia?" No? You do not
remember?
A No.
Q Okay,
well, whatever. The show
"What is Utopia?" was about to go on. You might remember us phoning you up, hassling you because
there was a show going on. No?
A I
mean, obviously you will do that because it's ... going to start on next week,
blah‑blah-blah. So I said
"okay". That was why we
made sure that job was done and the area was tidied up for you. So when you're telling me now, that it
continues again, obviously what I felt is if it did continue ... you will have
called me back, which you never did.
And you said you reported to Jacqui. Jacqui never did. The next thing I knew of any leak was
to do with 106, which I did come in to - had a look at it, and I put a
mark on it to tell you that if the damp extend more than that mark then I know
there's still leak happening on the Flat 1.
Q When
was that? That was in January.
A That
was January 2005.
Q January,
okay. Because what you are saying
is basically both stack pipes happened at the same time, in January.
A They
subsequently happen about a month interval.
Q Within
a month.
A About
a month interval.
Q Okay,
so just going back to 104, do you recall - because, you see, a lot of the time,
Richard, I work from memory. I
think it probably is to the annoyance of the court, but a lot of the time I
work from memory and I - maybe you have a similar memory as me in the
situation.
Do
you remember coming in and putting a hammer through that stack? Do you remember? I was quite impressed. I was like "oh" because
somebody brought down that stack casing and it was you.
A That's
104.
Q 104.
A 104.
Q And
you said, "Get me a hammer."
Got you a hammer. You just
went "whack".
A Yes,
because it was wet.
Q Exactly,
but, Richard --
A Because
it was wet.
Q --
do you remember it was you who opened it?
A No,
it wasn't open then. It was --
Q You
banged a whole in it.
A --
bang. I hammered it but ... it was
wet.
Q That
is right.
JUDGE COWELL: I am sorry, I cannot hear what you are saying.
A Okay.
MISS FLORES: In January.
A Not
January, not January.
JUDGE COWELL: One moment, we are going ...
A Not
January, that's what, that's what I'm trying to - I'm trying to correct
issues. It's not January. I wouldn't hammer the job that has been
repaired. It was before it was
repaired that it did that.
MISS FLORES: Sorry, say that again.
It was before it was repaired.
A Before
the ----
Q Yes,
that is what I am saying. You
opened the stack case.
A Yes.
Q You
were an investigative surveyor.
You opened the stack case to establish that the pipe was wet behind it.
A I
mean, that was why we noticed that the back was wet behind it, and I went
upstairs to go and do what I had to do.
Q Yes,
so, in January ----
JUDGE COWELL: It was January, was it?
MISS FLORES: Well, the end of January/February. I had to show - the reference to it, Mr. UK, is ‑‑‑‑
JUDGE COWELL: This is when the casing came off.
MISS FLORES: Mr. UK took the casing off. Thank God, someone took it off.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, exactly, in January.
MISS FLORES: And he established, yes. Put his finger on the pipe, says it is leaky.
A No,
no, no, no, no, I think you are making this up, in a way. I didn't take the casing off. I wouldn't take the casing off.
Q You
did not take the casing off. You
just put a hammer ----
A Yes,
yes, yes, I'm making two statement.
You said I took the casing off.
I hammered it.
Q Not
all of the casing, just --
A Okay,
okay, fine.
Q --
put a hammer through --
A Okay,
fine.
Q --
put your finger through to establish the pipe was wet.
A Well,
we know it was wet, yes, because it is damp around it.
Q I
was very impressed, Mr. UK. I do
not know why you are even worried.
This happened. I was
impressed by the fact that you did this.
Why are we differing?
A No,
no, I wanted to get everything properly stated because I didn't take - when you
said "take the casing off" ----
Q No,
I do not mean the whole box casing.
I mean you whacked a hammer in it, put your finger through, "Yes,
it's wet. Now you know the stack
pipe's wet."
A Okay.
Q Right,
that was end of January/beginning of February 2005 because I had the show
"What is Utopia?" ... I was obviously anxious to get the leak, which
was - the pipe was wet, the wall was wet.
You were easily able to put that hammer through, and we - you then - let
us move on - you then ordered a job.
A Yes.
Q You
got a contractor because you do not - you are a surveyor. You do not do the contractual work, do
you?
A No,
the contractor do the job.
Q Yes,
so then you went back to the office, raised an order.
A That's
right.
Q I
do not know if it is Shenstone or if - it is neither here nor there, but you
raised an order. Generally, to
raise an order, how long does it take: an hour, two hours or a day?
A Well,
if I put the order out, I put it out.
I raise it on that day. It
goes to the contractor and it depends on the appointment date. So the contractor will visit on the
appointment date.
Q Right,
okay, so it has already been established it was some time between - you know,
it was done within three or four days but the point is - I think that was the
point, actually. The wall was
opened by a contractor.
A Yes.
Q Would
have been --?
A FWA
...
Q Yes,
were you there when the black jubilee clips were put on - sorry, black rubber
and then the two jubilee clips round the pipe? I think you popped in.
I am not sure----
A I
was there when ---
JUDGE COWELL: Are we still on 104?
MISS FLORES: Still on 104.
You will either have a visual recollection of it, or you will not.
A I
was then when he cut the damaged section off. I removed the section.
Q That
is right.
JUDGE COWELL: You were there.
A Yes.
MISS FLORES: He was there.
JUDGE COWELL: Just a moment.
"I was there when leak on 104 stack pipe" ----
MISS FLORES: And what they did, Richard, you know, because we both
watched it.
JUDGE COWELL: Wait a moment, I am making a note of it.
MISS FLORES: Cut the damaged section out.
JUDGE COWELL: And this was the day when the order was met by the plumber:
31st January.
MISS FLORES: Some time around then, yes.
JUDGE COWELL: About 31st January. So you were there when the leak was cured.
MISS FLORES: Mr. UK popped in to see that the job was being effected by
his contractors.
I
am not wrong, am I, that you saw it ----
MISS BHALOO: Let him answer.
MISS FLORES: Sorry.
JUDGE COWELL: Let him answer.
MISS FLORES: I am actually feeding you the whole story. I am meant to let you answer, but I am
not very good at this. I have never
done it before.
JUDGE COWELL: All right, just pause a moment.
You
were there and saw it.
A I
was there with the plumber. We
tried to trace where the leak is coming from after the work has been done in
the flat above. It was then he
identify the pinhole, the pinhole in the pipe, and he showed me, "Oh,
that's where the leak is coming from, you can see it," and we noticed it
seeping through - not fast, because it's small hole. It was just coming out gradually. So I ask him to take that section off and renew the section,
and that was when I ask him as well to complete the job and renew the casing as
well. But I didn't stay with him
to renew the casing, because I have to go another inspection. But I know he did that. He took the damaged section off, I
renew the section, and I left him to complete the job.
MISS FLORES: Mr. UK, when you say "pinhole" - because I saw it
too - do you mean - I mean, I do not know what maintenance terms are but is
that what you just call a "pinhole"? Is it the size of ----
A No,
it's a pin, size of a pin, a pin, a little pinhole. It's a tiny hole on it.
Q Because
I remember it having a crack.
A No,
never, not on that.
Q Would
you think that so much liquid could come out of a pinhole?
A Yes,
it will.
Q What
comes through from the stack pipe?
A Sorry?
Q What
material comes through from the stack?
A It
depends on what it's connected to.
It could be some stack - if it's two stack pipe, there might be one for
waste from WC, the one from the bath and the wash‑hand basin. So the one that came in there, I
presume, must be from the bathroom, from the bath itself, because it's all
joined from the flats and, this one, it must be from the bath because the
second one ... check it properly.
There's two pipes in that box.
One should be for the waste.
Q Which
one is that? 106 has got two
pipes?
A 106
got two pipes.
Q No,
it has only got one pipe.
A If
you check your - What it's called? - the pictures, think they should have two
pipes there.
Q We
will check the pictures in a minute but --
A Okay.
Q --
there is just one. Okay, we can
check it but we will check it in a minute.
A Okay.
Q It
has got one pipe, Richard, but that is okay. All right, we will look at G.1, 77. Is the pipe exposed in that? Yes, it is exposed: G.1, 77. So it is just one pipe in there,
Richard.
A That
is 106.
Q That
is 106, yes.
A 106,
yes.
Q Yes,
just one pipe in there.
A I
mean ...104 but this 106.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, that is right.
A Okay.
MISS FLORES: It is just the one pipe.
A Okay.
Q That
is okay. I have lost my bit,
sorry. So you hammered it
open. You changed the - you got
the casing changed. You made all
the orders. What I wanted to ask ----
JUDGE COWELL: If you look at p.81, you will see, I think, your pencil
mark.
A Yes.
Q And
that is on 15th April.
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, that is 106 and I think we were dealing with
the pinhole in ----
MISS FLORES: Yes, we are, we are.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, I quite follow that.
MISS FLORES: We are, but Richard just said there is two stack pipes in
106 and I am just showing him that that is okay but it is just one, but
obviously we are not dealing with that, as you just pointed out. So can we stick to stack pipe 104?
A 106
you mean?
Q No,
104, because we are not meant to be dealing with stack - it is just because you
mentioned there is a double stack pipe, we have jumped to 106.
A Okay,
go on.
Q We
are still on 104. We are going to
be over soon.
A That's
all right.
Q Right,
okay, so the boxing - sorry, you put a hammer through. You raised a contract with a
plumber. The plumber came
along. You, me and the plumber had
a look. Jubilee clips on. All done. We disagree about pinhole or crack, does not really matter,
agree to disagree on that. Then
you raised a contract with obviously a painter and decorator.
A Yes.
Q You
went downstairs. You had a look,
obviously below, in the fire-exit corridor. There was damage to both sides of the casing because that is
obviously where everything gathers and goes all the way up, which is, you know,
often why we would only get the bottom half quite damaged but, if it went on
and on, it might grow further up.
So you got that guy - I cannot remember who it was - to renew each side
of the casing on the bottom floor and the top floor, then repaint, wait for it
to dry, repaint, put two coats.
That is standard, is it not?
A That's
standard.
Q Standard. And replace the insulation.
A Yes.
Q Now,
104 had insulation - 106, never, but it does not really matter about that. But there was definitely someone went
down to Travis Perkins, got the insulation, came back, job done. Would you say, estimate, two to three
days? It certainly could not have
been done in a day, with the drying time, the insulation time, the plumbing
time, the ----
A Well,
the - I presume it's going to be about two days because the fixing of the pipe
that was damaged was ... and I left him to finish off the casing. So the painting work obviously will
have allowed the area to dry before painting.
Q He
did not paint it, though, did he?
He is a plumber.
A Well,
the painter came in. Not him, not
him, obviously.
Q Yes,
so another contract raised.
A Yes.
Q Okay,
so we established it is a couple of days, maybe three, three days for the job
to be finished. I submit that it
was three days.
A Okay.
Q I
think you said it was done in a day.
A No,
the work, the leak - the pipe was done in a day.
Q Right,
okay, so that is clear then.
A Yes.
Q That
is what you meant when - so finished.
A Okay.
Q Right,
there is some reference document to this in D.2 and B.2, that is D.2, 375. I should look at it before I tell you
all to look at it, actually, because it might not be that relevant. Sorry, I will try not to do that. (After a pause): Okay, that is just our
property claim form. I will just
check the next document before I give it to you. B.2, 129 and 105 but really do not check yet because it
might be just my own note. (After
a pause): Okay, again, it is
irrelevant. I will try not to
do that again. 105 is - right,
sorry, just my notes, I do apologise.
We
will move on to the stack pipe at 106/108.
A Okay.
Q Thank
you. In February 2005 - and I
think it has been quite established that that was the date, by the courts and
through this trial, that almost the same day - and you will remember, probably,
running from one building to another, but almost the same day as one stack pipe
was fixed at 104, another leak occurred at 106, in the bathroom.
A But
not - I'm not really recollecting, but ...
Q It
was quite close to each other. You
said earlier it would happen within maybe a week.
MISS BHALOO: No, he said a month.
MISS FLORES: What did you say, Mr. UK? How long between you dealing with one leak were you dealing
with another leak?
A I
can't get your question properly.
Q Sorry,
104 happened. You got it fixed.
A Yes.
Q Suddenly
there is another leak - I think I described it as "water on the
ceiling" - next door.
A 106.
Q In
106.
A Yes.
Q Do
you remember having a look at that very first ----
A I
remembered when you called me to make reference about the leak at 106. I came to meet you there. That was when I put the mark on the
ceiling.
Q Right,
okay, so that was - I am just asking you.
A That's
all right.
Q I
have to ask you these questions.
JUDGE COWELL: Put a mark on the ceiling. That was your first --?
A That
my first time I go to 106, yes.
Q First
visit to 106.
A Yes.
MISS FLORES: I think we have established that there were some emails from
Jacqui that were asking you to deal with another leak at 106. Do you remember Jacqui doing that?
A Jacqui
made reference to what you - when you reported that, and, when I spoke
with you, I came to meet you, and you gave me a time to come and meet you. Then you showed the 106 leak to me. Then I felt - and I looked through the
work orders that jobs had been raise to effect of any leak - from some leak
coming from Flat 1. So I put the
mark on the ceiling just to establish if there's any more leak coming through,
it will go past where my mark is and I'll be able to tell that nothing has been
done properly in Flat 1.
Q Could
I ask you: have you had any similar occurrences with stack pipes throughout
that building?
A Not
in that building in the sense that your area is just where the shops are. The other parts of the buildings where
we have stack-pipe problems, they are just residential and that is we straight
up - we deal with them easily, without anybody interference with - I deal with
them easily ...
Q Yes,
of course, because they are nothing to do with commercial.
A With
commercial, yes.
Q They
are no trouble at all. What about
John in Flat 3, above the top of the - not the sari shop, that shop on the
corner?
A The
elderly guy, yes.
Q Yes,
I saw his ceiling was - was that stack pipe?
A That
was a stack pipe. That was just
leak. from sinks, WC, whatever. I
mean, he had some problem with leak in his flat.
Q Right,
that just leaves me to - the link I was trying to make was, as
a surveyor ‑‑
A Yes.
Q --
who does maintenance --
A Yes.
Q --
do you think there is something wrong perhaps with the stack-pipe system? It could maybe be improved, for
example, putting in double stack pipes for the capacity, because John Mason,
who is a resident - you might know him - gave evidence that they doubled in population
when the development happened, those flats, and, therefore, being on the ground
floor or being on any of the floors, stacks pipes are - what I am asking: is it
usual to have that many occurrences of stack pipes breaking?
A If
you notice where we are coming from, the stack pipe that happen 104 wasn't a
fault of the stack itself. It's
just a pinhole. Probably somebody
nailed something and nailed through, and went through the pipe itself. I don't know what happened but there
was a - it was a tiny hole that did that.
This second one, 106, my assumption was a leak from one of the - maybe
the connection from the flat above, to that where your section is. Maybe there's a loose end in there
where the leak is coming through.
That was why we want to rectify the leak from upstairs. So, I mean, it does happen. Properties, the big properties and they
buried some items within the walls and, suddenly ... to happen, we have to
break through to establish where the faults are, to carry out repairs. So this is not an issue - it's not a
strange issue. It's mostly what we
encounter occasionally.
Q It
happens.
A It
happens.
Q Yes. So I think my only question was more
out of interest for your expert opinion on whether you think that maybe two
stack pipes could be ----
A Well,
this a big size of it, pipe, it's a big size of the pipe I can take that ...
Q Was
it 12 ...
A Yes,
it's a big ... that can take such a number of tenants. I mean, on that ground, we have about
88 flats there - eight flats that run on this.
Q But
a number of them have had stack pipes leaking in through their ceiling. Whole ceilings have come down.
A Not
really the stack pipe leaking.
It's sometimes the WC.
Q I
have borrowed dehumidifiers from flats that have - when I have ----
A Yes,
we ----
MISS BHALOO: ... let the witness finish.
MISS FLORES: Excuse me, I am questioning the witness.
A We
have ----
MISS BHALOO: Let him answer.
JUDGE COWELL: We need to hear the answer.
MISS FLORES: You are very patronising, you really are. You know, I just think you should leave
me alone sometimes.
JUDGE COWELL: Do not take offence, please.
MISS FLORES: Thank you.
A We
have leaks in most flats, due to either carelessness of some tenants; due to
either leak from sink, leak from WC, leak from wash-hand basin, leak from the
bath. We have ... leaks in that
sense.
Q So
it is mainly the stack-pipe system I was concerned about because I wrote
a letter to Chris Natt in 2005 --
A Yes.
Q --
and said, "Maybe you should replace it with the lead pipes again,"
because, you know, it happened - it has happened a couple of times to me and
that is quite bad for business, as you can imagine, for ----
A I
mean, this is the actual - PVC is the actual pipes to be using.
Q It
is the new material.
A It
is a new material. We cannot use
lead pipe. Lead pipe can carry
asbestos; can carry ... with it.
This is the right pipes.
Q There
has been problems with the sewage system.
People have had sewage coming up their bath holes and
what-have-you. You think then this
may be an issue of overcapacity on those ...
A No.
Q Even
though the population has doubled in ----
A Yes
- no.
Q And
the occurrences are not great enough for you to ----
A I
can recollect where you are coming from about sewage coming through. Sewage comes through in the fire
duct. The drainage leading
to the outside, to the main street level: if they block or if there's a flood
coming through on the street level, it will back surge every other item coming
from the flats, every other items coming from the estate, because that is the
main run on the street.
Q So
the underground drainage might be ----
A Yes,
that is the main run on the street, which is owned by the council.
Q So
that would make it come up into the bath plugholes.
A That
could affect as well. That could
disrupt the flowing of any flow from any flat or any estate. Okay, that could be - that's one of the
problem ----
Q It
is quite a normal occurrence.
A I
know there was some flat - such an event in one of the - in the estate, which
we dealt with and it's to do with the blockage from the street level.
Q Yes,
I am always seeing Radion Drainage vans out there.
A Yes.
Q So
what was that last thing you just said?
I missed that.
A So
I said I noticed the way - the effect of drainage or back-sludging of waste
from the pipe. That was due to
blockage from council-owned drainage.
Q Okay,
that is fine.
A Yes,
okay.
Q Really,
I was just asking for your opinion.
A That's
fine. I'm just actually explaining
what is happening to you.
Q Yes
- no, I do understand. In the
meantime, Mr. UK, you did call out and mark the area to the stack - to that
leak. We have established that you
marked the walls and you marked the ceiling.
A Yes.
Q And
you said if it - I mean, first of all, I just want to ask you, in your own
words, what was your reasoning behind that? But you have said that already, have you not?
A Yes,
I did.
JUDGE COWELL: Did the colour of the leak not indicate to you that it was
a wastepipe as opposed to ordinary bathwater?
A Not
really, because being that the ceiling is a ply board or is ----
Q Sorry,
being that what?
A The
ceiling is board. It's not
concrete.
Q I
am sorry, being that what?
A The
ceiling.
Q The
ceiling?
A Yes.
Q Being
that the ceiling, what?
A Is
a board material.
Q Is
a board.
A It's
not concrete.
Q Material,
not concrete.
A And
if the leak has been going for a long time, it soak the materials and ...
I mean, it's wet and that will - that can occur easily.
Q If
you get a leak for a long time, it can go that colour.
A And,
to be candid to you, when I was there, I never smell any bad odour, other than
damp, that's what I smell.
Q "I
never smelled any bad odour while I was there."
MISS FLORES: I do not know if you remember - I might need to show you
some floor plans. I will just
check where they are before I ...
I will have to double‑check my note.
MISS BHALOO: G.1: it is in there.
MISS FLORES: No, no, no, I am just checking the floor - it is in ----
MISS BHALOO: ...
MISS FLORES: It is for 106.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes.
MISS FLORES: Anywhere will do, really.
MISS BHALOO: Tab 3.
MISS FLORES: Tab G.1, Richard.
A I
don't have G.1.
Q Sorry.
MISS BHALOO: Miss Flores, is it ...
MISS FLORES: No. I just want
a basic floor plan, one of the - G - C.1, 127. Okay, right, Richard, I will show you what I mean. Can you see?
MISS BHALOO: C.1?
MISS FLORES: That would be C.1, 128. You will probably recall ----
A Is
it G.1 or C.1?
Q C.1,
128.
A I
don't think I have C.1. Anyway ...
Q Does
not matter, I will show you from here.
Basically, there is the stack pipe. Do you remember me coming through that corridor there ----
JUDGE COWELL: Sorry, C.1?
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, may I get it for the witness?
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, thank you.
Is it C.1?
MISS FLORES: C.1, your Honour.
JUDGE COWELL: And it is page what?
MISS FLORES: Page 1 - sorry, 218.
JUDGE COWELL: 218?
MISS FLORES: Yes.
A 128
is here.
Q 218,
Richard.
A 218.
Q Yes.
A Okay.
Q Right,
now, you know where we are on this plan, do you not? Coming through from the gallery, into the fire exit here,
round to the two bathrooms, there is the leak. You do remember the way - the layout.
A I'm
trying to think of the drawing.
Where you're coming from?
Q You
are trying to recall. Okay, let us
point it as if you have forgotten.
A No,
no, no, go on with the drawing.
Where you coming from?
Where's the exit and where's the entrance?
Q Sorry,
this particular drawing is downstairs.
A Downstairs.
Q Is
downstairs in 106.
A Okay.
Q It
is in the basement level.
A Okay.
Q The
glass bricks are here.
A Okay.
Q The
stairs are here.
A Okay.
Q That
is that wide wooden room with the gold lights. And there is the two bathrooms: one to the left and one is
straight in front of you. If you
go round that corridor, you go back out, round the corner to 1-0 --
A 104.
Q --
-4, and the electricity cupboard is in between.
A Yes.
Q Yes? Now, we are just going to go to the
place where the soil stack leaked from, which we just saw pictures of. Now, I do not know if you remember
there was a little door here. The
stairs go from here and it has got a nice little curvy line to show that they
go here and up. Yes?
A Are
you going - I'm thinking about it.
I'm trying to picture it properly.
Q Yes,
so they go here - they are wood.
A Sorry?
Q They
are wooden stairs with the gold lights.
A Okay.
Q Anyway,
so they go here and up. Now,
underneath the stairs, in this little alcove here, there is a door. Now, I do not know if you remember me
opening that door and showing you under the stairs because, when that stack
pipe is there, just leads right - sort of spreads along to underneath the base
of the stairs there. Do you see
what I mean?
A Truly,
I can't recollect that.
Q Okay,
I really just asked it out of memory because sometimes I have got quite
a visual memory about things.
So you do not recall.
A Yes,
I can't recollect that ----
Q But,
just for everybody's sake, that is the proximity of the bottom of the stairs to
the stack pipe.
A To
which one is that?
Q This
was the smell of damp in there as well.
A Well,
like I said, I can't recollect that because if I - I mean, if you have shown
that to me, and I noted there was a bad smell there, I will have, I mean, I
will have taken it up more than just leaving it unattended to because, I mean,
the other stack pipe, I did attend to them. If there was a bad smell and you show that to me, I will
have followed it up properly.
Q Except
that nobody was following that up.
In the end, there was this contractor called Eddie, from FWA, who I
begged to take the wall down ... you know, in April. So nobody was ----
A Maybe
that's when you ----
Q Do
you remember saying to me, when we were in that room and you put the pencil
mark there, that it would dry out?
A That's
what I said. I said if that
repairs had been carried out in the flat above, it will dry out, then we will
do the repair work we need to do.
Q Well,
you said it would dry out and it could just be repainted.
A No,
no, I wouldn't say that to you: that it's just repainted.
Q Well,
I asked for the MDF to be replaced and you said it would dry out.
A I
wouldn't ask - when I know the boxing is wet, I wouldn't say that. I know the boxing was - the boxing of
that pipe was wet. I wouldn't tell
you you just paint it over.
Q When
I said "open it up and replace it", which is probably why you raised
the order - I mean, I am not sure but, I mean, I asked you to replace it - you
said it would dry out and I should repaint it. It should be okay.
A I
think we spoke at very length in a proper manner when we're discussing on every
level of the repairs. We are so
concerned and we're communicating our‑self. I would not tell you just paint it when it's dried out.
Q You
said that you were effecting leaks - repairs to leaks upstairs and that, when
you had fixed the leaks - maybe this was over the phone or something, that you
said - no, in fact it was that same day.
I said, "Can you repair the MDF now," because of what it
looked like, and you said, "No, when I have fixed the leaks upstairs, that
will dry out."
A No,
maybe you didn't get me right.
When I say this - I put the mark there to show if there would still be
any leak coming through.
Okay? Then I told you,
"When we find out there's no more leak coming through, that section will
be taken out and repaired."
Q Right,
okay, we will agree to differ.
A Okay,
that was what I will have told you then.
JUDGE COWELL: When ----
MISS FLORES: I remember what you said ----
JUDGE COWELL: Wait a moment, wait, please, I am going to make a note. When no more --
A Leaks
appears.
Q --
wet coming out --
A Yes.
Q --
then the casing would be replaced?
A Yes.
Q Would
be replaced. And presumably it
would go without saying that the new casing could then be painted.
A Yes.
Q Do
you remember whether you said anything?
A Well,
I mean, that was what we did for the first one. That's same thing we did for the second one.
Q Painting
was done in the first case, 104, so that is what would happen.
MISS FLORES: I mean, do you want me to go on with this, your Honour, or
not?
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, whatever, but occasionally I have to make a note of
what is said.
MISS FLORES: I mean, I just wondered because your Honour's covered quite
a lot.
JUDGE COWELL: I have covered quite a lot.
MISS FLORES: And I really did it for ----
JUDGE COWELL: If you do not think you can take it any further ...
MISS FLORES: I could take it a lot further. It is just that I wondered if it was useful to your Honour.
JUDGE COWELL: The real point is whether this should have been discovered
earlier and --
MISS FLORES: Is that clarified in ----
JUDGE COWELL: -- I have put - one of the questions which could well be put
by you was that, surely, seeing the colour of the ceiling and of the casing,
you should have assumed that it was a wastepipe. And then he answered that. I made a note of that answer.
MISS FLORES: I was going to ask.
So, Richard, on that G.8 folder, 81, I mean, this is the colour. Do you think this comes from a stack -
potentially - 81 of G.1 bundle, tab 10.
Do you think that this comes from potentially a toilet pipe,
a toilet waste?
A Like
I said to you ----
Q 81.
A Like
I said to ----
Q Sorry,
just to get to the actual picture: 81 ----
A I
did make mention of this.
Q I
am asking your opinion on the picture, not anything else.
A Yes,
it's water wet.
Q Yes,
just that I am asking your opinion on the picture of no.81. Have you got to 81 yet? I think that is what your Honour wants
me to establish with you - is what do you think of that picture? Do you think ----
A That
is not - that is due to ----
Q Do
you think that could be waste from a toilet?
A Waste? What do you mean:
"waste"? Water waste
....
Q Do
you think, looking at this picture ----
JUDGE COWELL: Sewage?
A Not
sewage. It's water waste.
Q It
is not sewage.
A No,
it's not sewage, it's water waste.
I'm really sure about that: it's water waste; it's not sewage. I mean, if it's sewage ----
Q Why
do you say that?
A Yes,
because if it's sewage then we will both have smelled the sewage and we would
make reference to that. We didn't
do that.
MISS FLORES: So there was the flies as well and the ...
A Flies
can come in when it's damp. Fly
can comes in any room if there's constant damp on it, the fly can comes in
there as well. But this is - I
mean, if it's waste - I drew the mark there, I drew the pencil mark there. I will have notified that, "Oh,
this is smelling. It's bad."
JUDGE COWELL: Yes.
MISS FLORES: Right, what effect - it took four months for this crack to
be mended. What would you say you
did upstairs during that time that would have contributed either to - I mean,
what did you do upstairs in the meantime?
A There
were job raised on to repair the leak from the bath, leak from the WC, just to
make sure we ... the tenant has reported about leak as well. We went there to repair other's leaks
to eliminate ----
Q So
where was the leak? Where exactly
were the leaks upstairs?
A We
make reference to the bath. We
make reference to the ----
Q That
was the bath at Flat 3, so that is 104.
A 1,
1, 1, Flat 1.
Q Sorry,
there was leak from the ceiling, the bathroom ceiling, on Flat 1. It was not the leak from the bath,
which would mean that it was actually Flat 7, above, that had the leak.
A There
was leak from Flat 7, above, into - even on to Flat 1 as well.
JUDGE COWELL: Were any of the leaks from upstairs, any of the flats, leaks
of sewage?
A No,
they were - let me put it this way.
If there was any leak from any flat, of sewage, the tenant would not
stay in there.
MISS FLORES: Absolutely.
A They
will not stay. They will make
noise about it. And this I know
for sure, is not sewage; it's waste - it's water damp. And, like I said earlier on, I put
a mark there, I put this mark there.
If there was smelling of waste, I would have taken it up from
there. I wouldn't just leave it
like that.
Q Just
to say, Mr. Ukhueleigbe, no one is suggesting there was sewage in the upper
flat. The crack was discovered on
the ground floor of our shop.
A Yes.
Q So,
therefore, if it was a stack pipe, a wastepipe, whatever it is you want to call
it and - you know, I cannot convince anyone that that was excrement, but it
smelled like it to me. I was there
for a long time. You were, you
know, probably used to these sorts of things. But what I am saying is the flat upstairs - you said you
repaired some leaks.
A Yes.
Q Now,
the only reference is to a leak in Flat 1. Why did it take three months to fix a leak in Flat 1,
which turns out to be a bathroom ceiling leak which would suggest that it was
Flat 7 that was leaking into Flat 1 and, therefore, had absolutely nothing to
do with our ceiling on the ground floor?
A I
mean, if you check the other - the job raise against Flat 1, or - you will see
we raise a job 120908 to open up - that's to open up your casing. And there's other job that was raised
to repair leak in the bathroom.
Okay? So we - I mean,
there was job raised on that.
Q The
point was it was on the ceiling, Mr. UK.
The leak in Flat 1 was on the bathroom ceiling; not the bath, not the
toilet, not a leak coming from Flat 1.
A leak coming from Flat 7, affecting the ceiling.
A That
is ...
Q Well,
okay, let us go over the work repair order because really I do not get what you
are saying - what was being fixed upstairs that took three months before we
were attended to. And why did you
not know it was stack pipe leak, when, only a few months before, we had had one
in the gallery?
JUDGE COWELL: Let him answer.
A The
answer I would give to you ... all this while, to find the leak and if the
stack pipe was wrong or faulty, I had to eliminate any leak coming from the
flats above, which I did. And to
... I put a mark to see that whatever work we did upstairs ... rectified and if
there's no rectify then the leak will continue and the damp will extend over
the marks I put there, which never occurred. That was why I raised a job for the casing and the
insulation to be renewed.
MISS FLORES: Okay, can we move on to the next incidence because I
think ‑‑
A Go
on.
Q --
we've stayed on this one long enough?
Can we just agree to disagree, but that you for your evidence? The next incidence was the flooding at
104 Cromer Street.
A Yes.
Q The
evidence of yourself, according to these floor plans on p.278 of
claimant 1, file C.1 - sorry, C.1, p.278. Would you mind having a look at that, Richard?
A Page
--? (After a pause): What page is it?
MISS BHALOO: Page 278, I think you said.
JUDGE COWELL: Page 278, it is the plan.
MISS FLORES: 278 is - it should be the plan that I drew of ...
A Yes.
Q Now,
Richard, can you just verify for me because you have been into these flats and
I was guessing at it to a certain extent, although I have been into Harvey's
flat and been into Deebo's flat: is Flat 1 correct because I have just totally
guessed at that?
A Flat
1 is on the side of where you put it, yes.
Q Sorry,
your Honour, just for the record, that one is above - it is the whole of the
above Flat 106, is it not?
A Yes.
Q It
is the whole of above 106.
A Yes.
JUDGE COWELL: Flat 1 over 106-8.
MISS FLORES: Raymond lives in Flat 1, Raymond.
JUDGE COWELL: Who does?
MISS FLORES: I call him "Sammy" but it is Raymond.
A Is
it Raymond that live in Flat 1?
Q Raymond
lives in Flat ----
A I
think it's a Asian guys that ----
Q Yes,
Raymond.
A Okay
----
JUDGE COWELL: Raymond who?
MISS FLORES: His name is Raymond.
JUDGE COWELL: Lives there.
MISS FLORES: His surname is Rahman.
JUDGE COWELL: Rahman.
A I
know they are Asian, but I don't know their name, like I said.
MISS FLORES: He looks like Sammy Davis Jnr., that is why I call him
"Sammy".
A Okay.
Q So
Raymond lives there with his two daughters and - three daughters now. Can I just quickly establish with you:
is that ----
JUDGE COWELL: I am about to adjourn.
Can we pick this up tomorrow?
MISS FLORES: Absolutely.
JUDGE COWELL: Let us come back to it tomorrow morning at half-past-ten.
MISS FLORES: Or I could say "no further questions". It is really entirely up to ...
JUDGE COWELL: It is up to you.
I should explain that I am the judge. I cannot take sides.
MISS FLORES: Sure.
JUDGE COWELL: Though I am very anxious to understand what was going on.
MISS FLORES: Yes, but maybe if I could ask one more question.
JUDGE COWELL: All right, try one more.
MISS FLORES: We could let the witness go. As I said to you earlier, your Honour, I do understand what
you are saying to me. It is just I
thought it might - maybe you wanted me to take this further. Can I just ask you, Richard, and then
you can go? Flat 3 is above the
back part of the gallery.
A Yes.
Q It
is that bit.
A Yes.
Q Flat
2 is Harvey at the front.
A In
front of - yes.
Q The
flooding occurred at the back half of the gallery.
A That
was the pin - the stack pipe.
Q No,
that was the flooding, where the ceiling got replaced.
A That
is the front bit, that is the front bit, Flat 2.
Q No,
the ceiling actually got replaced at Flat ----
A What?
Q No,
Richard, I am telling you. I am
not asking ----
A Yes,
I'm asking ----
Q I
have got photographic evidence.
A I've
explained this to you. I explain
to you water can leak, water can leak from, water can leak from this end.
Q Richard,
please, you are digging yourself a whole here.
A No,
no, no, no, no.
Q You
are, I am telling you, you are digging ----
A Hold
on, hold on.
Q Trust
me when I tell ----
A Let
me, let me, let me ----
Q Trust
me when I tell you ----
A Let
me explain.
Q Trust
me, trust me for a second. Go to C
- G.1.
A Let
me ----
Q No,
really, you are digging yourself a whole.
A No,
let me, let me explain issues to you.
Q No,
please, Richard, go to G.1.
JUDGE COWELL: I think I will deal with this tomorrow morning.
MISS FLORES: Okay then.
A Okay.
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, did you say 10.30?
JUDGE COWELL: Ten-thirty.
MISS FLORES: Sorry, your Honour.
MISS BHALOO: Your Honour, I will tell Mr. Ukhueleigbe that he cannot
discuss his evidence.
JUDGE COWELL: Yes, because you have not finished your evidence, do not
talk about the case to anybody.
A Okay.
Q You
can talk about the weather or anything else but not the case.
MISS FLORES: I do apologise, your Honour, for ...
JUDGE COWELL: That is all right, but I do remind you you are not actually
- you can put things to the witness, you are not telling him. And the important thing is I want to
hear what he says.
MISS FLORES: Yes, I am sorry, your Honour. I do not seem to be very much good at that.
JUDGE COWELL: I know you have not done it before.
(Adjourned
until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 22nd July 2010)
Mr. RICHARD
UKHUELEIGBE, Recalled
MS. BHALOO:
Mr. Ukhueleigbe, just to remind you, you are still under oath and
there will be some more questions for you.
JUDGE COWELL:
Yes. We got as far as
looking at C1, 278, I think.
Cross-examined by Ms.
FLORES
MS. FLORES:
Okay. Richard, could you
look at bundle B1? That’s tab
2. Do you know Harvey in flat 2?
A Sorry?
Q Do you
know Harvey in flat 2?
A Harvey,
the tenant there? I don’t
know him.
Q You don’t
know him.
A No.
Q So you
don’t know his mother.
A Sorry?
Q You don’t
know his mother.
A No.
Q Okay. And you don’t know his social worker.
A I don’t
know his social worker, but I spoke to the social worker.
Q So, if
you read that statement, it says that -- that’s his mum and she is saying that
he’s got carpet in his flat and it wasn’t affected at all.
A Okay.
Q So
I suggest to you that it was flat 3 that the leak was coming from.
A Well,
when I was called on Friday in regards to this incident ----
JUDGE COWELL:
Sorry, which incident are we dealing with?
MS. FLORES:
We are dealing with the flooding of 104.
A The
flooding.
JUDGE COWELL:
The flooding in June ’05.
MS. FLORES:
Yes.
A June 24th,
yeah.
JUDGE COWELL:
Yes, the 24th June flooding. Yes?
A When
I was called on the Friday … I happened to -- I was on my way
home.
Q Sorry,
you were called on the Friday.
A Yeah.
Q “When
I was called on the Friday, on my way home …”. Yes?
A They
reported about the leak. So
I was trying to find ----
Q Do you
remember who reported to you, who phoned you?
A The
office called me.
Q The
office, I see. “On my way”.
MS. FLORES:
It would have been the saree shop.
A Well,
I don’t know. The office
called me because the saree shop didn’t have my number. And I happened to be calling the
office to enquire the tenant in that place. They don’t have the tenant’s number of the flat.
JUDGE COWELL:
So you did what?
A I called
the office back.
Q “I called
the office back”.
A Yeah, to
-- just to get the telephone number of the tenant.
Q To get
the telephone number of which tenant?
A The
tenant of flat 2.
Q Tenant of
flat 2. Who was that? Can you remember who was in flat 2?
A …
Mr. Harvey.
MS. FLORES:
Harvey.
A Mr. Harvey.
Q No, his
name is Harvey.
A Harvey.
Q Harvey
McLean(?).
A Okay,
Harvey McLean.
JUDGE COWELL:
The tenant of flat 2, yes.
A I was
given the telephone number of his support worker.
Q “I was
given telephone number of his support worker”. Yes?
A I called
her and I spoke to her.
Q A man or
a woman?
A A woman,
a lady.
Q Yes. You spoke to the woman.
A Yes. She told me then that Mr. Harvey
is in the hospital, but she had access to go into the flat.
Q “She told
me Harvey in the hospital, but she had access to the flat”.
A Yeah,
‘cause she had the key.
Q “Access
to flat, she had key”. Yes?
A It was
then she told me that she got into the flat and the tap was on.
MS. FLORES:
But if Harvey was in the hospital how did the taps get on?
A I will
explain that to you.
JUDGE COWELL:
Just wait a minute. “She
told me”. She told you on the
phone.
A Yes.
MS. FLORES:
Sorry, he said, “It was then she told me”. I think he is referring to a further conversation.
A Conversation
…
JUDGE COWELL:
Wait a minute, take it slowly.
A Okay.
Q I did
not hear that. When you spoke to
her on the phone, had you got home or were you still on your journey?
A I was
on my way home.
Q You were
on your way home.
A Yeah.
Q I see. Can I just ask where is home?
A Bromley. Catford, Bromley.
Q I see. You were driving in your car.
A No,
I was in public transport.
Q You were
on public transport. Just a
moment. “Public transport, going
home to Bromley”. You eventually
spoke to her and she told you she had a key.
A Yes.
Q Then she
told you something further.
A Well,
I mean ----
Q What did
she tell you?
A Then she
was on her way to the place, and when she got there …
Q Wait a
moment. When you spoke to her,
where was she?
A I don’t
know where she was. I don’t
know where she was. But she told
me then she had a key, that she would go to the flat.
Q Yes. Is that the end of that phone call?
A Yes.
Q What did
you ask her to do?
A I mean,
I told her there was a flood from the flat. So she went.
Q How did
the phone call end?
A She told
me she was going to check.
Q She was
going to go to the flat.
A Yes.
Q I see. “She told me she … go to the
flat”. So you put the phone down.
A Yes.
Q What was
your next communication with ----
A Well,
after a while, I called her back.
Q Were you
still on your journey?
A On my
journey, yeah.
Q “After a
while, I called her back”.
Yes?
A And it
was then she told me she found the tap running.
Q “She told
me she found tap running”. Yes?
A She told
she found the tap running and she put it off. So that’s ----
Q She said
she had turned it off.
A Yeah.
Q “Turned
it off”. So was that the end of
your communication with her?
A That was
… end of communication with her, yes.
JUDGE COWELL:
With her, yes.
MS. FLORES:
Shall I continue?
JUDGE COWELL:
Yes.
MS. FLORES:
Did she say that there was water all over the floor?
A Yeah. She told me she turned the tap off and
there was water. Obviously, there
was water. That’s why it’s leaking
from that flat.
Q Right. And what did you do when you found out
there was water that night?
A Well,
I was -- I didn’t go that day because there was a plumber that was
booked to attend to that place from the office.
Q What day
was that?
A There was
a plumber that evening, on 24th.
Q The same
evening.
A Yeah.
Q Who gave
the plumber access?
A I mean,
I wasn’t there. I don’t
know how he got in there because I told … there was a support worker
already inside.
JUDGE COWELL:
How did you discover that there was a plumber booked from the office?
A I didn’t
discover that. I mean, it was
the conversation we had when they told me that a flood was from the flat and …
already booked a plumber to attend an emergency.
Q Sorry,
who told you about the plumber being booked?
A From the
office, from the call centre.
Q So was
that the same evening that you were told by someone at the office that the
plumber had been sent?
A Yes.
Q How were
you told that, over the phone?
A On the
phone, yeah.
Q Who
phoned you?
A From the
call centre. From our call centre.
Q Someone
called.
A From the
call centre.
Q The call
centre phoned you or you phoned the call centre?
A Phoned --
they phoned me to notify me about the leak.
Q I’m
sorry?
A They
phoned to notify me of the leak because I was … covering the area then.
MS. FLORES:
The place was flooded basically and the social worker ----
JUDGE COWELL:
Wait a minute, sorry, there was something I missed.
MS. BHALOO:
The call centre phoned him to notify him of the leak because he was the
area surveyor.
JUDGE COWELL:
Yes, that is what he said, but that was at the beginning, was it not?
MS. BHALOO:
Yes, and they told him that the plumber was booked.
MS. FLORES:
Well, how was the plumber booked?
MS. BHALOO:
I think that is what he said.
JUDGE COWELL:
When you had your first indication that there was ----
MS. FLORES:
What time was it ----
JUDGE COWELL:
When you had the first indication that there was a flood, was that when
you were told that the plumber had been booked?
A That’s
right, yes.
Q Right at
the beginning.
A Yes.
Q I see. “The plumber was booked from the
office, I was told during the first phone call”.
A Yes.
MS. FLORES:
So, just to get that clear, you came back from your first -- sorry, what
time was it when you first heard?
A It was in
the evening. I can’t exactly
say what time it was.
Q But it
was after work.
A It was
after work, yes.
Q You knock
off work about 6.00 or half 6.
A Something
… that, yes.
Q So by the
time you reach, from Chalk Farm to King’s Cross -- sorry, what I mean is
-- you said that you did what afterwards, you went via the flat?
A No,
I didn’t go to the flat, I said.
Q You
didn’t go to the area at all.
A I didn’t
go to the area. I was on my
way home.
Q You were
on your way home.
A Yeah.
Q You just
went home.
A Yeah,
because on my way home they called me.
Q They
called you.
A Yeah.
Q In your
first witness statement you say that you went to the saree shop.
A That was
on Monday.
Q That was
on Monday evening.
A Yeah.
Q Right,
okay. So who called the social
worker? Where did you get the
number?
A From the
office.
Q So you
were on your way home.
A Yeah.
Q And then
someone called you.
A Yeah.
Q And gave
you the number of the support worker.
A I asked
them about, “Do you have any contact number there?”. They gave me the social
worker, the support worker. So that’s when I called.
Q So at
that point who had identified that it was at flat 2?
A Well …
the way the -- I mean, I don’t know who reported to the call centre,
but … where … said the leak is affecting.
I felt the flat above that area is flat 2. That is the person I called.
Q Where was
the leak affecting?
A Well, the
-- I mean, they told me it’s affecting the Asian shop, so I believe
it to be flat 2. Affecting Asian
shop. It’s not going to be flat
3. It’s not going to be flat 1.
JUDGE COWELL:
Is that the saree shop, the Asian shop?
A Saree
shop, yeah.
MS. FLORES:
But flat 3 does run over the saree shop as well, doesn’t it?
A No. Flat 3 is at the back.
Q Shall we
have a look at the ----
A Flat 3
run over your shop, at the end of your shop.
Q Yeah,
it’s not a square flat; it’s quite a long flat.
A It’s a
long flat, yeah.
Q So it
goes slightly over the -- it goes also over the saree shop.
A Okay. But what I did then, ‘cause
I wasn’t there as a person to see, I only did my observation by what
I know how the flat was.
Q So you
saw the saree shop on the Friday night to assess ----
A On Monday
morning.
JUDGE COWELL:
No, on the Monday.
MS. FLORES:
Who assessed where the leak was coming from?
A Like
I said earlier on, my observation -- way I pictured the layout of the
property I felt flat 2 is above saree shop. That’s where I concentrated my call on to. That’s why I calling -- I was
calling flat 2. And I felt
flat 3 wouldn’t be affecting it, so I called flat 2 and I was able to
speak to his support worker.
Q Okay … on
the Friday, you called the support worker.
A Yeah.
Q The
support worker was the person who went in there and identified -- what sort of
level of flooding did she say?
A Well, she
didn’t tell me … details of the -- if it’s high up, if it’s a low level. She didn’t tell me anything. She only told me the tap was running
and she turned the tap off.
Q But you
said a minute ago that she said Harvey was in hospital.
A Yeah.
Q So how
long do you think the flat had the taps ----
A I wouldn’t
be able to know. I wouldn’t
be able to know. I don’t know
how long it was.
Q And who
would’ve turned the taps on if he was in hospital?
A Well,
later on, on that Monday, from -- the information I had was that Thames
Water must have turned the taps off.
They were doing some work on that area then. They must have turned the tap off probably ----
JUDGE COWELL:
Who told you that?
A That was
information I had … from the residents.
MS. FLORES:
That was from me, wasn’t it?
A Well, you
-- I don’t know. I’m not very
sure who told me. I can’t say
… that information I got … from ----
JUDGE COWELL:
I see. “Told by the
residents that Thames Water turned water off”.
A Yes, and
I presume the tenant must have tried to use water and left the tap …
then. So he left to the hospital,
and when they put it -- turned water back on that was when the flood
happened. That was ----
MS. FLORES:
But we’ve established that the tenant was in hospital, so how would they
have ----
A Sorry?
Q Sorry,
are you suggesting that the water was cut off for a long period of time?
A I wouldn’t
know when the water was cut off.
I don’t know.
I don’t know when it was cut off. I don’t know when it was put on. But information I had later on was
that was what happened and that must have been the result of ----
Q Yes. I phoned Thames Water and found --
well, Chantal phoned Thames Water and found out that there had been a cut-off
of water in the area that night.
It wasn’t specifically that block; it was in the area and it was shut
off at 3.00 in the morning and it was put back on at 6.00, or something like
that, 9.00 -- 12.00 to 3.00, whatever it was, but it was in the night. So you’re saying that the flood
happened -- when you knew of the flood it was in the early evening.
MS. BHALOO:
Your Honour, I do not think the evidence we have had so far is
that it was shut off in the night.
I do not know how much this matters.
JUDGE COWELL:
No, I doubt if it does.
MS. FLORES:
I suppose what I’m trying to say is that there was no support
worker, was there, Mr. UK?
A There was
support worker.
Q There
wasn’t, was there?
A There
was.
Q Well,
have you got the name of the support worker?
A I don’t
have the name of the support worker.
Q Why don’t
you have the name?
A Yeah,
but, like I said ----
Q It’s very
important evidence. Why don’t you
have the name?
A Like
I said, I don’t have the name.
Q You don’t
have the name.
A I don’t
have the name, but I know I spoke with support worker that told me
----
Q And she
didn’t turn off the taps, did she?
A Obviously,
you ----
Q Because,
otherwise, a ghost would have left the taps on. I mean, you just said yourself that the hospital --
that Harvey was in the hospital, didn’t you? And if you read that statement by his mother who had her son
harassed by Alan Hines, the loss adjuster, you will find that Mr. Hines is
trying to put liability on the tenant who’s got serious -- some mental health
problems. And it is all very
convenient to make up a story about a support worker turning off taps, which
seems absolutely ludicrous and you know it’s not true.
A You said
the man is ----
Q Well,
I haven’t got any further questions for you because you’re clearly lying.
JUDGE COWELL:
All right. Just let him
answer.
A You said
the man is not -- okay, I mean, you said he had a condition. Obviously, if person has a condition,
will have a support worker.
I spoke with support worker.
I’m very sure I spoke with support worker, and that’s what the
support worker told me. I’m not
lying. I’m saying the truth of
what happened that day. Whatever
the mother said, I don’t know about that.
MS. FLORES:
But, Richard, it’s very convenient.
A Let me
finish. Let me finish.
Q It’s very
convenient.
A Let me
finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. Whatever … said, I don’t know
about it. What I -- the
conversation I had with the support worker and what she told me, that’s
what I wrote. That’s what
I said.
JUDGE COWELL:
That is what she said.
MS. FLORES:
But earlier, at the beginning, I said, “Do you know who the tenant
is?”. You said no.
A I don’t
know.
Q “Do you
know his mother?”. You said no.
A Yes,
I did.
Q Then
I said, “Do you know the social worker?”. You said no.
A No,
I didn’t say so.
Q And then
later on ----
A I didn’t
say so.
MS. FLORES:
Well, look, I’m sorry, you did.
I don’t have any further questions for you.
JUDGE COWELL:
Thank you.
MS. BHALOO:
Your Honour, no re-examination. Does your Honour have any?
JUDGE COWELL:
No, thank you very much.
MS. BHALOO:
Thank you. May
Mr. Ukhueleigbe be released, your Honour?
JUDGE COWELL:
Yes, which means you can stay or go, whichever you like.
A Thank
you, sir.
(The witness withdrew)
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