Many thanks Ms Rai
Kind Regards
Stephanie Harrison
Clerk to HHJ Saunders
Central London County Court
Thomas More Building
Royal Courts of Justice | Strand
London | WC2A 2LL
MM. Good afternoon
SR. The Judge still has to join and then they’ll introduce the case
MM. Okay Thank you
JL. Judge Lochrane
SR. I’m just going to press record and then it’s okay
Conference is now being recorded
SR. H00CL470 before Judge Lochrane a preliminary hearing in the case of Mary Moss v London Borough of Camden
Ms Moss appears in person, the Claimant Ms Rai is currently for the defendant
JL. Right good afternoon everybody,
Good afternoon
Good afternoon
JL. Right I’ve had a look at some of what you have sent in and I’ve had a look at the bundle and I’m afraid I have to say it may just be my fault but I’m not at all clear, what is it you are after?
MM. Right well em, thank you your honour for your time I’m very grateful at short notice, it’s regarding the roof of my apartment being
JL. Yes yes forgive me I’ve read your, em
MM. Oh what you, sorry er
JL. What it is is er I don’t understand what is it you want generally from these proceedings and what is it you want from me today, what’s it about?
MM. Well I mean I’m looking for a resolution because at present I’m not really feeling that anybody’s responding to me
JL. What is the resolution?
MM. Well initially it was to get an injunction because I felt harassed with the possession order for the 22nd March, in the corona Virus where possession orders are simply going through to eviction processes quite, quite..
JL. You want eh an injunction to stop Camden seeking possession
MM. Well that would be the extreme your honour but for a mediation approach something less
JL. What have you done about it, I mean have they served you or what?
MM. They did your honour
SR. Sir, I’m sorry to interrupt the possession has not been issued a notice seeking possession has been issued but possession has not been issued
JL. Yeah okay
JL. It’s for the possession order to be issues and then if you feel you want to defend the possession if you feel you have grounds to defend, I’m not sure if they have been even given to grant an injunction to stop the local authority proceeding with possession and you have a perfectly open right to defend the possession proceedings once the possession proceedings are actually issued
MM. You Honour I found myself in a position of feeling harassed because the procedures haven’t been followed correctly, first of all in the first written warning which was a non-significant anti-social behaviour warning treated with draconian measures with the written warning, which removed the cornerstone of my housing. The second issue was retrospective permission was given to the tenants to bang on my head for 18 months and nothing has been done about that except that I have been gaslighted and thirdly third point your honour, is that this possession order came about because of an assault on myself which I’ve been extremely upset about and I have had no …
JL. Well I mean what possession order?
MM. Well the notice seeking possession came about because
JL. There’s no possession order
MM. No there’s a notice seeking possession well regardless of the you know technicalities of what the notice is, it shows no willing to negotiate, no willing to have no costs, which I’m keen to keep as a non-cost order, I’m simply asking for a negotiation with myself as a human being
JL. What is my jurisdiction to make any order which will
MM. Well, well your honour I’m not represented and the possession order is extremely scary and it’s done within a time of Corona Virus when you are simply phoned up and evicted and I’ve been put into the most serious of catergory and I’ve had no history of anti-social behaviour in 34 years, I’ve had two art galleries, a flower shop, I’m an upstanding member of the society and I feel that this has come about because of a rats situation where there is a vendetta by the housing officers after
JL. Sorry to interrupt again I mean I understand that there are difficulties between you and Camden
MM. Not really there’s
JL. But my problem is I don’t know, I’m not seeing that I have any jurisdiction that I have to give you in these proceedings that can answer that or anything that your asking for
MM. Well your honour, I’m perfectly happy
JL. Util they issue possession, you’re not under threat of possession
MM. Well I feel under threat
JL. Well I’m sorry but I’m not quite sure if I can make an injunction in respect of your feeling
MM. Well I’m not looking for an injunction as the obvious choice, I’m looking for a directive on whether or not a council can give retrospective permission looking at the PWA 1996
JL. But I mean what is my jurisdiction to do that
MM. Because your learned honour
JL. I don’t think I know, I’m asking you, I’ve not come across it I’ve no idea Ms Rai will tell me whether I have jurisdiction or not
MM. Well I’m
JL. Well I’m completely in the dark whether or not I have but I have to say my inclination would be it is unlikely that I have jurisdiction
MM. Yes
JL. And if you could show either the legislation or the authority that shows me that I have jurisdiction to make any order of the kind
MM. Well its
JL. If I’m allowed to make an order of this kind
MM. Sure, it’s in the contract your honour, the contract is within the tenancy agreement which says that the tort and quiet enjoyment was breached and this was an. Anti-social behaviour issue and the council has done nothing in the 18 months of not allowing me to have quiet enjoyment. The issue who I did not complain about for 7 months and when the rats issue came about it was only then that I let the housing officers know but I had complained of rats for 4 weeks and I had complained quite highly in the council and it was a vendetta and this warning is out of character, for my character and everyone in the neighbourhood would know that this is not my character and it’s not significant and I shouldn’t be treated like this, your honour.
JL. Ms Rai do you have an understanding of what is being sought today?
SR. No what I will say is this that given that she’s upset about the notice seeking possession there’s no jurisdiction at all in these proceedings and she also seems to think we have adopted some nuisance but there’s no legal basis to set that out if she is being caused nuisance by her neighbour above, then she needs to take appropriate action against the neighbour above. The claimant seems to be that the core of her hearing is, the notice seeking possession was served well there’s no jurisdiction for you to cancel that notice seeking possession in fact you were absolutely right when you said when and if possession proceedings are served she will be able to challenge all the allegations claimed in the notice seeking possession so it is not appropriate to make any application and if you look at the bundle she is asking you to make an injunction based on this and I’m not clear what the jurisdiction is and that you have no jurisdiction. Looking at the claim it says take an injunction against Camden Council adopted noise nuisance and abatement of that noise, well it’s not covering, the noise nuisance act is not covered for any communal area this is coming from someone who has demised that property, she may have an action against that particular tenant but she has no legal action against us. She also says harassment and abuse of process to stop forthwith but it’s not clear what those legal processes are save that she may see that the notice seeking possession as harassment but it’s not harassment and the local authority served a notice seeking possession. Ms Moss’s is also entitled to challenge the service if she so wishes but none of those, they’ll be in the administrative courts if she wants to do that but none of those and, she probably may be very well out of time in relation to that, so it seems to me there will probably be no qualities in relation to that matter. It seems to me your honour that you have no jurisdiction, I am seeking as you can imagine for you to strike it out. Under CPR 34.
MM. May I respond your honour.
JL. Yes of course, of course.
MM. Miss Sonia Rai said that you don’t have jurisdiction but I made it clear that to Camden Council 28 days ago, when I sought the injunction that I would be taking legal action due to the fact that the neighbours took up this laminate and I’m constantly harassed by it which in the contract is an anti-social behaviour order and so the injunction was to stop the noise nuisance. In terms of what Miss Rai said about it ..
JL. I err er
MM. Could I, could I, sir it’s very difficult for me to think could I just finish my point, in terms of what Miss Rai said em Miss rai said `I would have had an action against the tenants above but I beg to differ because the tenants above were given retrospective permission which was against contract in the letter from the council that said that they were satisfied that they had put down insulation of three and a half mm when in fact it was actually 1 and a half mm and any human being would know that that constant night and day basis with which there are a couple of children upstair that are overcrowded is something unbearble especially when you work at home and especially at this time. And so I have constantly asked the council and I am not here today to, to and I am very grateful for you even speaking to me and for Miss Rai speaking to me about this and it’s something I want to sort out but the anti-social behaviour that has been accused of me, is something I can, in the possession procedure, if they go ahead, as you say, but it doesn’t allay the fact that the tort of quiet enjoyment still exists. And those are the issues that Wanted the courts to deal with and I gave 28 days notice and I believe I don’t know the law under part 34 what ever it was Ms Rai just quoted, I don’t know the law and perhaps you would like to be able to appoint a barrister someone who is learned in these matters to see if there is an issue which you know, if somebody else had to face, would be the same issue, your honour.
JL. First of all it seems to me that regardless of whether or not the council has authorised the.. um.. the um..
MM. Retrospective permission
JL. The improvement, for the flat above there’s, there’s nothing to stop you, in the event that, that amounts to nuisance, in suing the neighbours
MM. I can’t sue the neighbours because they’ve given, the neighbours have given, have been given permission your honour, they’ve been given permission by Camden your honour
JL.Well I, I..
MM. This has been adopted
JL. Ms Moss, you do need, you do need to listen now. Okay, the behaviour of your neighbours potentially are completely separate from whatever may or may not have been granted permission by the landlord they may have caused cray and aid (?) but if you can prove that there may very well be an action against your neighbours but if you want to challenge the landlord, the landlord on the basis that the landlord has granted permission, which it should require, this is not the right forum to do that.
MM. Oh really?
JL. As Ms Rai said you need to make an application which is probably out of time, and in the administrative court,
MM. The administrative court, sorry could I just write that down, the administrative court is what
JL. I’m not, I’m not, I’m not advising you Ms Moss, I’m not in a position to advise you
MM. Your honour I’m very sorry but when you say the administrative court
JL. I’m telling you I can’t understand what your position would be
MM. Right
JL. If you wish to challenge, in a normal court if you wish to challenge and correct me if I’m wrong
MM. Yes
JL. Planning applications from the local authority to do that is by judicial review through in the court
MM. Excellent
JL. And you will have the required and I’m not by any means an expert in judicial review but as I understand it before you would even have even a chance of a judicial review you would need to exhaust the complaints procedure within the council , the formal complaints procedure and that would end up with a complaint to the local Government Ombudsman and would be your route to internal complaints before you, you are able to act in the administrative court, but I am not able to advise you of that if that’s the route you want to take then you need to get independent advise as to whether that’s correct or not.
MM. Okay.
JL. That’s my understanding.
MM. I have actually
JL. What I’m saying to you is, what I’m saying to you is I am quite confident that you do not have
MM. Jurisdiction, I understand that, could I just honour, quick bracket, could I just quick bracket on what you just said your honour, you said, that I should go to the housing ombudsman, through the complaints procedure, that I have done, and it is in the particulars. I in July went to the complaints procedure and had no reply, and the housing ombudsman has advised the council, that Ms Moss, myself, would accept, that the written warning, which was draconian, and insignificant be removed and that the landlord put back the fixtures that the tenant upstairs removed that belonged to Camden Council that’s what the housing Ombudsman
JL. That’s a matter for …
MM. Yes but they’re not replying to me, nobody’s replying to me,
JL. Well I cannot make an injunction requiring Camden to respond to your correspondence, I don’t have jurisdiction to do that.
MM. But do you have jurisdiction for them to follow procedure in mediation
JL. No, I can’t
MM. Okay
Jl. I don’t
MM. I’m very sorry to waste your time, I really am,
JL. If you want to take an action
MM. Well I realise I’ve made a fool of myself
JL. If you have a complaint about your neighbours judicial review
MM. I realise that judicial review, yeah, yeah, well I take
JL. At the moment I’m not seeing any jurisdiction at all
MM. Well in that case I wish to withdraw, I wish to withdraw, the whole application, I’m sorry to waste your time and Ms Rai’s time and I will follow the procedures that you’ve kindly told me
JL. I’m not advising you as I see it, it’s my understanding
MM. But you told me categorically and I respect you your honour
JL. What I am telling you categorically is that I do not believe, unless you persuade me to the contrary, by showing me some authority by the legislative body that I have jurisdiction
MM. I am not a lawyer
JL. Unless you can persuade the council to withdraw the application for possession and unpick this permission and unless you can point me to an authority which I don’t think exists, I don’t think I have authority to grant you anything you’re after
MM. Right, that’s fine, and I withdraw your honour please, I can hear you, I do understand you, I’m quite fast you know, I just want to say I’m very sorry, for causing any trouble, but Ms Rai could you please advise your council, I do not want a cost order, I simply want to be talked to and no body is talking to me, they’re just harassing me,
JL. Well I’m very confident that you are being heard
MM. Well thank you your honour
JL. Well I’ll make an order, that I am not unsympathetic to your situation of course I haven’t heard the councils side of it, but in any event, the kind of …? Can create all kinds of issues in themselves
MM. It’s kind of ridiculous in themselves and they shouldn’t be treated with this heavy handedness
JL. Well I’m afraid I can’t help you with your situation
MM. Well I withdraw and I’m very sorry and I am very grateful
JL. There is nothing to be sorry about, your just trying, you perfectly entitled to try all of that
MM. I feel harassed I didn’t know what else to do,
JL. Well I understand
MM. I’ve been packing my belongings, it’s not really fair I’ve been there for 34 years
JL. Yes one thing of which you can be sure is that you will not be evicted
MM. How do I know
JL. Without a court order and that
MM. Yes but the Corona virus, they’re just, they’re getting ground 2 people and they’re just stamping it through, it was in the Camden New Journal, they’re just phoning people up and telling them that they have been evicted, how am I not meant to feel like I’m gonna be evicted? I can’t even go out my door,
JL. I cannot guarantee that you won’t ultimately
MM. But why what have I done wrong
JL. These are only allegations made now
MM. Yes but I’m not a criminal, I’m not a criminal
JL. Of course you’re not a criminal, no one is suggesting you’re a criminal in any way
MM. Yes but anti-social behaviour is a slight on my character
JL. And it is at present unproven, it’s just an allegation
MM. Right thank you, thank you that does comfort me,
JL. Yes at the moment its an allegation,
MM. Yes, it’s an allegation, that does comfort me thank you
JL. And if you get some professional help, you will have an opportunity to challenge those allegations in court
MM. I suppose your honour, can I just say and it will be my final word on this, I was attacked by one of their contractors and this has led to me being very, very upset and this is why I’ve come to the courts because none of that has been addressed and there has been three procedural errors right from the start, there’s been the warning and there’s been the anti-social behaviour of the tenant upstairs and now there’s been the assault without investigation and possession proceedings issued against me.
JL. Right, ah and then I make the point that I don’t want to give you the impression that I am unsympathetic
MM. Thank you
JL. But at the end of the day there is nothing I can do, to assist your current situation, so possession proceedings if they do, you will have an opportunity to defend those proceedings on the basis you reject those allegations, but so far as I’m afraid much as I can compel the council, to follow their, their um own procedures, this is not the route by which you can do that.
MM. No and I am very apologetic about that
JL. There’s nothing to apologies for Ms Moss, there’s nothing to apologies,
MM. We don’t want to waste your time your honour
JL. Don’t worry
MM. Thank you
JL. Alright
MM. Okay
JL. Ms Rai,
SR. Yes, well from what I can see, I’m gonna ask you to dismiss the allegation
MM. I’ve withdrawn it, Ms Rai, I’ve withdrawn it, I Don’t need it dismissed I have withdrawn it,
JL. Ms Moss, Ms Moss, Ms Moss, Ms Moss, it’s very unhelpful for one person to talk at one time, I appreciate these proceedings are very difficulties
MM. Sorry
JL. These hearings become even more chaotic when people should
MM. Sorry
JL. Let Ms Rai say what she’d like and in due course we’ll come back to you if necessary
SR. Well what I’m gonna ask you to do is, you have struck out the claim under CPR 3.4 on the basis that the claimant displays no reasonable grounds produced in the case
JL. Why should I not heed Ms Moss’s request to withdraw the claim
SR. You can do so as well, you can certainly do so, but you have heard the case and it seems to me that the appropriate time to have withdrawn it would be prior to you hearing it, and you can of course say in the preamble that upon the defendant withdrawing her claims , I don’t have any clue either because on both cases, I’m still going to be seeking my costs, and er but I do think that you have heard it and um I’m happy for it to be withdrawn if that’s what the claimant wants to say, but I also do think that you have heard it, that you should say that you, in any event would have struck it out, on the basis that it discloses no grounds for bringing the case
MM. I think it’s splitting hairs
JL. Okay we’ll deal with that in the preamble but I think we’ll give Ms Moss the permission to withdraw on the under.. on the preamble, the judge had indicated that the application of the claim did not disclose any jurisdiction, the courts
MM. Thank you
JL. Anyway I’m going to ask you Ms Rai to dod the order,
SR. I am, permission for the claimant to withdraw the claim, on the basis the Judge having heard the Judge indicate, having heard the Judge indicate that he had no jurisdiction, of the Judge
MM. And the jurisdiction was through judicial review which I maybe out of time
JL. No, no, no, no,
SR. No
JL. I’m not telling you that, that is not going in the order you can take your advice, I’m not telling you what to do, it is my understanding, my ruling is, well it is not a ruling, it’s an indication that I do not have jurisdiction in these proceedings to grant you what you are looking for, my indication to you which you should go away and research is a more efficient way of dealing with it, it my not be very efficient at all but it would be to to consider whether or not the appropriate route by way of judicial review, or complaints to the council or the local government ombudsman, and that is not an indication, and that is not advice, this is my understanding as an explanation and you should go away and think about it
MM. Thank you your honour.
JL. Yes
MM. Could I just make one point on costs,
JL. Hang on, hang on, hang on, Ms Rai hadn’t finished
SR. Just one point I am seeking my lawyers fee, my attendance fee today, which is £700, we have attended the claim and she has conceded, and the costs should follow the usual events of being mine eventually
JL. Have you served a costs schedule but that’s why all I’m doing is indicating,
SR. I’m just seeking the costs of my brief here which is seven hundred pounds.
MM. Could I make a comment please under Jackson law which is litigants in person, and the fact that I’ve showed good conduct throughout, I seek for you to not accept the costs order, in the event that Camden Council has means they have borough solicitors. That they had no need to employ counsel of such high caliber Five Paper Chambers
JL. It’s the normal course of events Ms Moss, I’m afraid, you made an application that you’re going to withdraw, and you would expect that having to respond to the application and the instructions, you would pay something towards their costs,
MM. Well, can it be means tested, your honour, because otherwise there’s an imbalance,
JL. Your, your ability to pay,
MM. I don’t have ability to pay it,
JL. Hold on, hold on, your ability to pay it I’m afraid is not part of the legitimate considerations of awarding it, but if they were trying to enforce it then, they have to take into account your ability to pay and you will be given the opportunity to be heard
MM. But, but
JL. But your ability to pay is not a consideration for me I should make the order
MM. The order yes but just your honour, there was some case, some years ago, regarding Jackson Law and the equality of arms, and I think that that needs to be taken into consideration. How I feel with the weight of not only a council, but now a very high, top class, legal professional, being brought in at short notice.
JL. Right, um anything else Miss Moss?
MM. That’s it your honour, thank you.
JL. Well er consequent on the frame er in light of the courts jurisdiction and the complication of my juristiction that she wishes to withdraw her application and has been granted permission to withdraw and consequence application made on behalf of the council for costs in respect of the application, they’re amounting to four hundred pounds and approaching the matter of seeking withdrawal, she should claim the entire counsel fee but on the other hand, that’s the trouble paying barristers so Ms Moss I order that you pay £400 towards counsels costs.
MM. I’m very grateful your honour
SR. Um I’m grateful
JL. Ms Moss, do you have an email address that you’re happy to give us,
MM. Yes that’s Mary Moss Boss at outlook . Com
JL. Could you just spell the first part, that’s Mary Moss what
MM. Boss that’s B O S S
JL. No punctuation, no capitals,
MM. No that’s marymossboss@outlook.com it’s my business address
JL. You’ve got that Miss Rai
SR. I have yes
JL. Alright, okay, Miss Moss anything else
MM. No, just very, very much, thank you for being so eloquent and understanding
JL. Well that’s alright, well good luck Ms Moss, Miss Rai anything more from you?
SR. No thank you. We’ll file the or..
JL. Well
MM. Thank you Miss Rai
JL. Well I’ll expect that in a couple of days, right, stay safe.
MM. Thank you very much, bye bye thank you.
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